1st Chiro visit and I'm leary

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Originally Posted by Buzzworthy

I speak from a lot of experience.

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What... anecdotal experience as a patient? Anecdotal evidence does not scientific proof make.

Do you have ANY counterpoint to the information, evidence, arguments, and well cited articles I linked to? So far it seems your position is based on stamping your feet and shouting "No! YOU'RE wrong because I say so!"

Edit: Why, here is another article on strokes caused by neck manipulation!

Chiropractic's Dirty Secret: Neck Manipulation and Strokes
http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...irostroke.html
Stephen Barrett, M.D.

Here is another article:
What a rational Chiropractor can do for you
http://www.chirobase.org/07Strategy/goodchiro.html
Samuel Homola, D.C.

summit- I don't really have a dog in this fight but I would like to point out that your sources are not much better... quackwatch? Sounds pretty scientific and unbiased and stuff. I'm just sayin...

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Originally Posted by lemon boy

summit- I don't really have a dog in this fight but I would like to point out that your sources are not much better... quackwatch? Sounds pretty scientific and unbiased and stuff. I'm just sayin...

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I've linked to a half dozen articles... that isn't much better than... "No, you are wrong because I say so"???

The article on Quackwatch is written by a doctor...

OK I do acknowledge your point. It appears you want the real dirt which is a bit more boring to many. (I like reading this stuff though)

Here are six peer reviewed medical studies I found in ten minutes on google:

Vertebral Artery Dissection in Germany over three years (This study is pretty damning.)
http://www.chiro.org/Professional_Re...reuter_u06.pdf
U. Reuter M.D., M. Hamling M.D., I. Kavuk M.D., E. Schiekle M.D. of the Verebral Artery Dissection Discussion Panel (15 Neurologist study)

Spinal manipulative therapy is an independent risk factor for vertebral artery dissection
http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/abstract/60/9/1424
By, W. S. Smith, MD PhD, S. C. Johnston, MD PhD, E. J. Skalabrin, MD, M. Weaver, MS, P. Azari, G. W. Albers, MD and D. R. Gress, MD
American Academy of Neurology
This is a particularly good and damning study (n=151 final) that has been widely cited

Neurological complications of cervical spine manipulation.
http://www.jrsm.org/cgi/reprint/94/3/107.pdf
Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine

Spinal manipulation: Its safety is uncertain.
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/reprint/166/1/40
Canadian Medical Association Journal

Chiropractic Manipulation and Stroke: A Population-Based Case-Control Study
http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/co...ract/32/5/1054
American Heart Association

Neurologic complications following chiropractic manipulation: a survey of California neurologists.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract
From NIH pubmed... I could only get the abstract but its from the Journal of Neurology the study was done by Stanford Stroke Center, Department of Neurology and Neurological Sciences, Stanford University Medical Center

OK 6 proper peer reviewed medical studies from various nations show the link between c-spine chiropractic manipulation and VAD strokes...

Is there a stack of peer reviewed scientific studies that show otherwise?

I'd be really interested to know if there's any real scientific, medical (double blind peer-reviewed studies) evidence for chiropractic procedures having any positive effect. If it works, we should have more than anecdotal evidence from believers--because until there is proof from such studies, that's all chiro proponents are: believers. You can believe whatever you want, but recommending a pseudo-medical treatment to someone with a legitimate back problem is not good practice, IMO.

As I said before, with a back problem I would make a good ortho my point of reference--if that person recommended chiropractic treatment (would this ever happen?) then I would consider it (but whatever they recommend a second opinion could be a good thing, too).

edit: to note that Summit does seem to present some excellent sources that call 'manipulation' into question (I hadn't really looked through them before, and I guess he concluded by asking the same question I did).

My chiro has helped, but he's definitely most helpful if I go in very soon after a crash that made my back feel tweaked. I have a more chronic problem with my spine between my shoulder blades - it's too straight. This, he hasn't been able to do that much with - it's been like that for too many years, I think. For a while I was getting shooting pains in my shoulder blades, and he got rid of that, which was a huge improvement, but I still get tightness there, and I know it's still straighter than it should be and have to keep up with stretching, etc. But if I go within a few days of something happening - one or two adjustments and it's gone.

With something like your situation, I wouldn't expect it to be miraculously cured in a single treatment. But you do want someone who will work with your PT and regular doctor, and who you just feel comfortable with.

And I can tell you with 100% certainty, that with many of my neck/back issues, the chiropractor has fixed it for me. I've gone in, not being able to turn my head more than a few degrees, had him crack my neck, and walked out with normal range of motion, and the pain and stiffness are gone. You can't tell me that's placebo.


And one other thing - I have heard of chiropractors causing injury - HOWEVER - this is why a good one does x-rays and takes a thorogh history before they touch your back. We recommended a friend to ours, who took a look at his xrays and sent him to an orthopod. They're not all just out for a buck, and a good one knows what they can do and more importantly what they can't.

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Originally Posted by altagirl

And one other thing - I have heard of chiropractors causing injury - HOWEVER - this is why a good one does x-rays

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An X-ray is purely a diagnostic tool, one which chiropractors are questionably trained in the interpretation and safe use of. An X-ray being taken before manipulation will have no effect on complications from the manipulation. As far as the X-ray... Doctors know better than to X-ray every patient they see. I guess Chiropractors think that some extra radiation does the body good?

ctarmchair makes an excellent point that Chiros often do more than bone manipulation. However, the root of straight Chiropractic teaching is that all illnesses and maladies, including infections cancer etc, are caused by misaligned bones (subluxions). What we can see is that Chiropractors who do not completely ascribe to such hooey are then simply choosing their beliefs as they see fit, not by what is scientificly determined to be an effective treatment. That is why Chiropractors vary so amazingly widely in what they claim to be able to treat and how they claim to be able to treat.

We see all this advice on how to find a Chiropractor that does the "right" things...

Why is it that with chiropractors you see all sorts of advice like, "If the Chiropractor starts talking about healing you with magnets or sticking a tube up your butt, run out of that Chiro office!"

You don't see advice like that for other medical fields. You never get advice like, "If the doctor starts talking about leeches and blood lettting, find a different hospital."

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Originally Posted by Summit

An X-ray is purely a diagnostic tool, one which chiropractors are questionably trained in the interpretation and safe use of. An X-ray being taken before manipulation will have no effect on complications from the manipulation. As far as the X-ray... Doctors know better than to X-ray every patient they see. I guess Chiropractors think that some extra radiation does the body good?

ctarmchair makes an excellent point that Chiros often do more than bone manipulation. However, the root of straight Chiropractic teaching is that all illnesses and maladies, including infections cancer etc, are caused by misaligned bones (subluxions). What we can see is that Chiropractors who do not completely ascribe to such hooey are then simply choosing their beliefs as they see fit, not by what is scientificly determined to be an effective treatment. That is why Chiropractors vary so amazingly widely in what they claim to be able to treat and how they claim to be able to treat.

We see all this advice on how to find a Chiropractor that does the "right" things...

Why is it that with chiropractors you see all sorts of advice like, "If the Chiropractor starts talking about healing you with magnets or sticking a tube up your butt, run out of that Chiro office!"

You don't see advice like that for other medical fields. You never get advice like, "If the doctor starts talking about leeches and blood lettting, find a different hospital."

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Well, I'm getting off topic, but as it turns out, leeches do have a beneficial use in modern medicine.

And I disagree about the xrays. If you want to have a chiropractic adjustment, you should get an xray (or bring a recent one) so they can see what they're dealing with. Or just skip the whole thing altogether. Alternative medicine is a mixed bag. Some is crap, some is beneficial. I think the risks are extremely small with a good chiropractor. I don't know anyone who has been harmed by a chiropractor, but I know several who have had back surgeries that made their situation worse. Go figure. Personally, I believe in trying the lower risk, less invasive solutions first.

If it was such a load of crap, you'd think my insurance wouldn't be covering it.

Some people swear by Chiros, although it freaked me out when a neurosurgeon told me "Chiropractors keep me in business."

Can you see a Rehab/Sports Med doc? Sounds like it's worth an MRI to see what's going on.

And why narcotic pain meds? Have you tried Flexeril or some sort of muscle relaxant?

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Originally Posted by altagirl

Well, I'm getting off topic, but as it turns out, leeches do have a beneficial use in modern medicine.

If it was such a load of crap, you'd think my insurance wouldn't be covering it.

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Ewwww, one of the hospitals I worked at used leech therapy.

On a sidenote, I don't think you should ever trust your insurance company as a meter for providing prudent or appropriate care.

Funny how people are brutally attacking Summit when he is basically just posting facts that a person about to visit a Chiro for the first time might find useful. Quackwatch is a well known and well respected website that deals in many other areas of medicine. It is not a "Chiro Bashing" site, and in fact, it even has a couple of nice things to say about them.

If Chiro works for you and you are so completely confident in it, then great. Post your thoughts here and continue to give them your money for a service that relieves your pain - but yes, I join the few here that are publicly willing to admit that they are skeptical of Chiro's.

I remember being dumbfounded when a Palmer student told me that he could cure my cold with a manipulation. I just had to lay down right there on the hole three putting green while he twisted and turned me this way and that. I told him he was fucking crazy, refused his free services, and was miraculously cured of the cold a couple of days later anyway. He graduated with honors from Palmer College of Chiropractic in Davenport, Iowa, and is now one of the top chiropractors in Iowa. Today, I think he is a crazy rich guy even though he loves to hunt pheasants, which would seem to make him sane. I'm sure he shrugs all the way to the bank, just like most chiro's. They have a degree, and even if they decide at some point that it is essentially worthless, it is the goose that laid their golden egg, and they've got to pay back the man.

Personally, I struggled with occasional lower back pain around a decade ago. I was told to simply ignore it by my family physician, work right through it, and stay active. I did that, and ever since, whenever a bit of pain pops up after a bad twisting fall or whatever throws my back, I throw bricks, lumber, garbage cans, cats, or whatever else I can bend over and pick up around until the pain disintegrates magically. It is a very soothing and peaceful treatment save for when I reach for those cats the second time around :eek:

In summary, I believe that Chiropractors and a heaping pile of bricks are both effective treatments for lower back pain. Bricks are cheaper.

Girlski-

I don't really put much faith in chiros. I would really go see a PT who specializes in orthopedics or even in low back pain (they actually do exist). I guess I'm biased because that's my field, but that's what I would do. There has been TONS of research lately on LBP and the results are really neat. Go see a PT who has graduated in the last 5 or so years, or at least find out if they do evidence-based practice, because the diagnosis and treatment of LBP has changed a lot in the last few years. I just took a big seminar on classification and treatment of LBP and the overriding message I came home with is that it is SO important to be/get a PT who practices based on the best and most current evidence in the literature on this subject (or any, really).

A couple of quick questions- On any given day, does your back pain extend down either of your legs or is it just centralized in your back? When you extend your back (bend backwards), flex forwards, or sidebend, does the pain go farther down your leg or come up and centralize into your back?

Good luck with it- I'd like to know what you end up doing.