Has the cheap season pass degraded the mountain experience?

I think it may also be important to note that the world's population is still going up. Not as fast in North America as other parts of the world, but it's rising everywhere but Europe (never been there to ski. How are their pass prices?).

On top of that, snow sports are more popular now than they have ever been. That the market for such activities continues to grow may be the bottom line cause for the crowds at your favorite hills.

News reports talk about how many new millionaires there were in such-and-such year. I wonder if the number of gapers is in any way proportional to that.
Just another example of corporatist government policies coming home to roost?

I think it may also be important to note that the world's population is still going up. Not as fast in North America as other parts of the world, but it's rising everywhere but Europe (never been there to ski. How are their pass prices?).

On top of that, snow sports are more popular now than they have ever been. That the market for such activities continues to grow may be the bottom line cause for the crowds at your favorite hills.

News reports talk about how many new millionaires there were in such-and-such year. I wonder if the number of gapers is in any way proportional to that.
Just another example of corporatist government policies coming home to roost?

cheap passes degrade the "experience" like cheap college chicks degrade the shag experience. stupid

cheap passes degrade the "experience" like cheap college chicks degrade the shag experience. stupid

cheap passes degrade the "experience" like cheap college chicks degrade the shag experience. stupid

Reno has a population of almost 200,000 (google) and Rose is 30 minutes away (mapquest). Cheap season passes or not your mountain is going to be crowded as all hell. Pricing people out of skiing to make your experience better is lame.

if it wasn't for cheap passes, there's no doubt that i'd forego resort skiing all together. heavenlys got a pretty crappy layout and mostly mediocre terrain w/ hordes of raider starter jacket wearing clowns. but hey, a $300 pass to a hill 10 min's from home during a time in my life where time is more valuable then $$$. how can you not???

Wow, resorts trying to convince skiers the reason they charge a lot for season passes is to improve our skiing experience. If they can get people to drink that Kool-Aid it's tantamount to a Jedi mind trick.

Just the title of this thread makes me want to gag. It sounds like you would be the second homeowner in a mountain town who lives there a month out of the year and votes against building the new rent controlled employee housing. I like to call it golf course mentality…If you set the hurdles high enough only rich white people can do it.:nonono2:

(I’m not implying racism here but there are strong parallels)

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

One cool thing they are doing is offering a deal for $250 for new skiers. For that, you get 4 lessons and the season worth of rentals and the season pass. The catch is you have to complete the 4 lessons before you are able to use your pass and you can't get rental equipment for free skiing until the 4 lessons are done. These classes are geared towards teaching skier ettiquette and skiing within your ability. It's been a successful program so far.

Screw the cheap passes but I do like the lesson, rental, pass program.

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I really like that idea. Seems like even a tiny bit of education makes the experience a lot better for everyone.

ending the lottery for season passes at Alta degraded the experience there more than words can ever hope to convey.:frown:

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Originally Posted by gageyk

This quote from the Alpine or Squaw season pass thread got me thinking:



I will agree with this statement refering to cheap passes greatly diminishing the mountain experience. Ever since Mt Rose lowered its pass price and especialy since they added a high speed lift to the Slide side the mountain has been very popular with "look at me" crowd, California tranplants no doubt ;). I would love to see them add $200 to their pass price or even charge an annual fee to park on the Slide side. On some weekends both parking lots will fill up and there is a slow, 20-30 mph, line of cars heading up from Reno. Sunny powder days are no longer any fun, thank god for storm days. Prior to the high speed on the Slide side there was never any traffic and certainly no parking issues.In either 2007/2008 or 2008/2009 a new lodge is going to open on the Slide side. The crowds will no doubt increase even more. I'm sure the resort owners will be quite happy but those old crumrudgrons like me do not like the change :mad: .

Maybe then I'll buy a Squaw Valley pass to avoid the crowds

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too lazy to find onehotchili's quote in the other thread, but I've been to Squaw multiple times and at different times of the season. He's spot on with the parking, no complaints there. However, the SV lift lines are the most retardedly set up corrals/maze's this side of Keystone. Lift lines on "uncrowded" days are inexcusable.

but, then again, I overlook minor details like that when it's a mountain like SV.

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Originally Posted by Woodsy

ending the lottery for season passes at Alta degraded the experience there more than words can ever hope to convey.:frown:

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Yeah, well I was in the lottery for a few years without getting the coveted pass, so I'm glad I can up'n buy one these days. And Alta seems less crowded now than it did then.

Open Alta to snowboards...there will be so many pissed off crusty locals that refuse to ski there anymore, the place will be empty!

This argument about comparing Squaw to other resorts honestly makes no sense.

Tier 1 resorts such as Squaw have many reasons for higher pass prices. The operating costs of large resorts are a lot higher than smaller resorts such as Alpine, Mt. Rose and Kirkwood. Your paying for access to all the infrastructure, more electrical drain for lifts and employees.

When you're comparing the Squaw pass price of ~$1300, you can't compare Squaw's price to Alpine or Rose. It's just apples to oranges. It's like comparing fat chicks to thin hot chicks, they might both be fun to ride but at the end of the day, we all want to be with the hot thin chicks :)

Squaw is 2x the size of Alpine, 3x the size of Rose. More lifts, more bars and just a better mountain.
When comparing Squaw prices you need to look at the below season pass prices. These are the resorts that Squaw views as competition.
Aspen - $1,579
Jackson $ 1,595
Whistler - $1,329
Snowbird - $1,250
Sun Valley - $1,950
Telluride - $1,375
Mammoth - $1,500 (unless you got in on the MVP)

The lower price season pass model that kicked in a few years back (Winter Park was first to do it at a trade show in Denver) was in response to declining tickets sale numbers due to economic factors following 9/11. A bunch of resorts that tried the lower price model have realized that the cost/benefits don't add up and they have raised their prices back up. For example, Mammoth had lowered their prices just to raise them a couple years later. Vail resorts lowered their prices and added more black out dates. So you can find a cheap deal but if the 'day of days' come during your black out dates you'll be bummed.

Those of you that think large mountain resorts are killing it and making a ton of money on lift ticket sales when compared to operating costs, honestly don't know shit about the cost of mountain opps.

The big issue here is long term sustainability of the industry. For example, most CO resorts are now charging a daily fee for parking. This really kills me! How can a family of 4 go on vacation when it's going to cost them 300 a day just for tickets. Resorts need to think about pass prices in an entirely different way, in a way that drives long term growth while taking care of the core audience - the local population. One idea could be a locals only pass where residents that are with in a specific zip code receive deep discounts. I'm not sure of the ideal solution but the current pricing modes just suck for everyone...

The bottom line - No Skiers = No Ski Resorts

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Originally Posted by GreenRun

When you're comparing the Squaw pass price of ~$1300, you can't compare Squaw's price to Alpine or Rose. It's just apples to oranges. It's like comparing fat chicks to thin hot chicks, they might both be fun to ride but at the end of the day, we all want to be with the hot thin chicks :)

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:rolleyes: I'm not surprised you don't get it. Skiing. I pay to ski - I don't care if you have more lifts, more bars, whatever, as long as I don't wait in line. Kirkwood offers the same skiing fun at 1/4 the season pass price.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

One cool thing they are doing is offering a deal for $250 for new skiers. For that, you get 4 lessons and the season worth of rentals and the season pass. The catch is you have to complete the 4 lessons before you are able to use your pass and you can't get rental equipment for free skiing until the 4 lessons are done. These classes are geared towards teaching skier ettiquette and skiing within your ability. It's been a successful program so far.

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That's a great idea.

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Originally Posted by GreenRun

Snowbird - $1,250

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You're wrong, The 'Bird is $950, the AltaBird pass is $1,200, it may be a little pricey, but for two awesome ski areas that get a shitload of snow & sweet terrian I don't mind paying it.

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Originally Posted by Altaholic

You're wrong,...

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I just grabbed the price off this web page where it says combo pass:
https://store.snowbird.com/season_tickets/

I'm not saying the price is out of whack, I'm just saying that it's priced accordingly with the market for similar resorts. As is Squaw, Jackson and other top resorts.

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Originally Posted by GreenRun

This argument about comparing Squaw to other resorts honestly makes no sense.

Tier 1 resorts such as Squaw have many reasons for higher pass prices. The operating costs of large resorts are a lot higher than smaller resorts such as Alpine, Mt. Rose and Kirkwood. Your paying for access to all the infrastructure, more electrical drain for lifts and employees.

When you're comparing the Squaw pass price of ~$1300, you can't compare Squaw's price to Alpine or Rose. It's just apples to oranges. It's like comparing fat chicks to thin hot chicks, they might both be fun to ride but at the end of the day, we all want to be with the hot thin chicks :)

Squaw is 2x the size of Alpine, 3x the size of Rose. More lifts, more bars and just a better mountain.
When comparing Squaw prices you need to look at the below season pass prices. These are the resorts that Squaw views as competition.
Aspen - $1,579
Jackson $ 1,595
Whistler - $1,329
Snowbird - $1,250
Sun Valley - $1,950
Telluride - $1,375
Mammoth - $1,500 (unless you got in on the MVP)

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I agree with much of what you wrote, but I do think that the market for Squaw passes is different than the market for, say, a Jackson pass. The folks who buy a Jackson pass (or T-Ride or Whistler) probably live in the area.

I know Squaw considers itself a tier one or "destination" resort, but I think that justifies their day rate. There's alot more *nationwide* competition (e.g., between Squaw, Jackson & Aspen) for the Smith family's week-long ski vacation than there is for season passes more than a few hours outside of the ski area.

(E.g, Bay area skiers might worry about whether to buy a Squaw, Alpine or N-star pass, but they're not throwing Sun Valley or Winter Park into that decision.)

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Originally Posted by cj001f

except there isn't a backup to the 7-11.

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exactly my point: I rally early (like reeall early) on pow days, score front row parking @ Alpine, grab a coffee and wait for the bell to ring. I then typically bail early before the traffic builds up on 89. But ther is always a line heading into Squaw and not Alpine (well, at the early hours I travel).

In CO the first to lower the pass was Winter Park for the 98-99 ski season around $250, not after 9/11. Then Copper and Vail Resorts jumped into the mix, there is no doubt that it has degraded the skiing expierence. The skiing is still the same but the traffic to and from the mountain is what has been affected, which in turn ruins the rest of your day and skiing expierence.

I am all for charging more for the season pass, but the CO market is very different than any others.

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Originally Posted by GreenRun

The lower price season pass model that kicked in a few years back (Winter Park was first to do it at a trade show in Denver) was in response to declining tickets sale numbers due to economic factors following 9/11.

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I don't think this is correct. Vail Resorts offered the cheap passes the season before 9/11. I'm not sure of the years before 1999 because I was not a skier.

The cheap season passes killed some of the smaller resorts like Geneva and Berthoud.

those places were on life support well before "cheap" season passes cam into vogue.

I daresay expensive lift tickets killed places like that. As places started to escalate their lift tix prices and upgrade their facilities people stopped going to resorts like Geneva and Berthoud. I'm not disparaging either, I used to love Berthoud, but for whatever reason they missed the boat. however, havin Berthoud as a backcountry playground is good times, not bad times.

I love the cheap pass, I skied more last year than I have in a while. If I didn't have the pass I would have gotten about half the days in I did.

As far as Kton being crowded..it has always been crowded. I it also easy to find lifts that you can ski right up to any weekend, it is just about being smart.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

My home area Bogus was one of the first resorts to do a cheap pass. It was in 98/99 or so. The year before they sold a season pass for $450 (not too bad) and sold something like 7,000 passes for the year. Then, in '98, they sold them for $200 and sold 29,000. They've sold between 20 and 30,000 every year since. You can't tell me it's about hooking the locals up. They made $2.5 mil more that first year. That mountain is a f***in circus now. The only redeeming factor and reason I get a pass is they spin the chairs until 10 every night. Weekends are now for bc.

One cool thing they are doing is offering a deal for $250 for new skiers. For that, you get 4 lessons and the season worth of rentals and the season pass. The catch is you have to complete the 4 lessons before you are able to use your pass and you can't get rental equipment for free skiing until the 4 lessons are done. These classes are geared towards teaching skier ettiquette and skiing within your ability. It's been a successful program so far.

Screw the cheap passes but I do like the lesson, rental, pass program.

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Thats why on weekends you ride 6 till its cut up or crowded, then head back to 3:cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GreenRun

This argument about comparing Squaw to other resorts honestly makes no sense.

Tier 1 resorts such as Squaw have many reasons for higher pass prices. The operating costs of large resorts are a lot higher than smaller resorts such as Alpine, Mt. Rose and Kirkwood. Your paying for access to all the infrastructure, more electrical drain for lifts and employees.

When you're comparing the Squaw pass price of ~$1300, you can't compare Squaw's price to Alpine or Rose. It's just apples to oranges. It's like comparing fat chicks to thin hot chicks, they might both be fun to ride but at the end of the day, we all want to be with the hot thin chicks :)

Squaw is 2x the size of Alpine, 3x the size of Rose. More lifts, more bars and just a better mountain.
When comparing Squaw prices you need to look at the below season pass prices. These are the resorts that Squaw views as competition.
Aspen - $1,579
Jackson $ 1,595
Whistler - $1,329
Snowbird - $1,250
Sun Valley - $1,950
Telluride - $1,375
Mammoth - $1,500 (unless you got in on the MVP)

The lower price season pass model that kicked in a few years back (Winter Park was first to do it at a trade show in Denver) was in response to declining tickets sale numbers due to economic factors following 9/11. A bunch of resorts that tried the lower price model have realized that the cost/benefits don't add up and they have raised their prices back up. For example, Mammoth had lowered their prices just to raise them a couple years later. Vail resorts lowered their prices and added more black out dates. So you can find a cheap deal but if the 'day of days' come during your black out dates you'll be bummed.

Those of you that think large mountain resorts are killing it and making a ton of money on lift ticket sales when compared to operating costs, honestly don't know shit about the cost of mountain opps.

The big issue here is long term sustainability of the industry. For example, most CO resorts are now charging a daily fee for parking. This really kills me! How can a family of 4 go on vacation when it's going to cost them 300 a day just for tickets. Resorts need to think about pass prices in an entirely different way, in a way that drives long term growth while taking care of the core audience - the local population. One idea could be a locals only pass where residents that are with in a specific zip code receive deep discounts. I'm not sure of the ideal solution but the current pricing modes just suck for everyone...

The bottom line - No Skiers = No Ski Resorts

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This is the exact reason why I bought a snowmobile and got rid of my pass. Sled cost me $9,000, which will pay off over the course of a few seasons. Not to mention that I kill and rip up terrain resorts wouldnt dream of opening. I ski powder everyday.

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Originally Posted by Altaholic

You're wrong, The 'Bird is $950, the AltaBird pass is $1,200, it may be a little pricey, but for two awesome ski areas that get a shitload of snow & sweet terrian I don't mind paying it.

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Shit ton of snow????? HA! It sucked this year! I rode their a couple of times and it was boney as shit. Those ski areas suck balls. Too small and too crowded with fluffers.

One of the best powder days I've ever had was on the slide side of Rose.
Wednesday morning, blue sky, no wind, 2 feet, and untracked lines until early afternoon. I tell people about this day to discribe that Rose is a cool hill. Then they started selling $250 passes. I don't have any stories since they started doing that.

That's cool, glad everybody is going skiing rather than the mall. But I bought a splitboard.

More people going more often means more good skiiers.

Fat skis make powder easier.

More good skiiers with fat powder skis = tracked out powder wicked fast.

And Rose doesn't allow you to have your dog in your car anymore.

The only reason I bought a cheap season pass was to hit Rose on the way up to powder days, then hike. Or stop by after spring skiing up at old hourglass. But now they call animal control if you have your dog so there is absolutely no reason on earth for me to go to Rose now, except shop monday.

But if you ask me if it's a good place to ski, I'll tell you about this one wednesday morning.

thats why I ski here
http://www.skialpenglow.com/?q=home

and best of all, its free

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Originally Posted by ak_powder_monkey

thats why I ski here
http://www.skialpenglow.com/?q=home

and best of all, its free

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Adult (19-59) $28.00 $19.00

Child or Super Retarded Fat Kids(6 and under IQ of 70) Free Free

Please tell me that all you JONGs didn't read this entire thread without looking at the date. How was this even found anyway?

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Originally Posted by Cyber Cop

Adult (19-59) $28.00 $19.00

Child or Super Retarded Fat Kids(6 and under IQ of 70) Free Free

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Can't believe I'm doing this, but in akpm's defense. Volunteers ski free...

And even dirty knee dropping hippies can have fun there

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c4...h/IMG_0232.jpg

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Originally Posted by Phill

Please tell me that all you JONGs didn't read this entire thread without looking at the date. How was this even found anyway?

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you can't jong me, you like my dog and I gave you sideboob