Has the cheap season pass degraded the mountain experience?

[Dromond]

No. But these days everybody "skis the blacks".

Well, in the east, I don't think that had much to do with fat skis. Unfortunately. Maybe a little bit when it comes to glades.

[shmerham]

Well, in the east, I don't think that had much to do with fat skis. Unfortunately. Maybe a little bit when it comes to glades.

Indirectly. Moreso with the advent of midfats, the average advanced skier started looking towards off-piste terrain, whereas before it was more about bumps or going fast. With off-piste becoming popular with the advanced skiers, it wasn't long before the masses were hopping in the glades with "everybody's doing it" as their reason.

I think the internet might be a big reason too. The amount of info (true or not) that I get from the internet is staggering. Nothing is secret anymore.

Another possible reason (for the east) is the weather. Drastic is not a word the northeast is unfamiliar with, but it seems like it's getting worse and worse. Feast or famine. With 20 shitty days and 2 good days, the crowds come out in droves.

Lastly, I think the pass has to have skier-visits up some. Sure, I know some people that bought passes and didn't even get their money's worth (myself included last year), but I know a lot of people, that went 20 or 30 times; people I just can't see going that many times if they were buying that many full-price or even discounted lift tickets.

[f2f]

shmerham, i agree with you. i have however just one comment: skiing in powder has always been the big thing, the best way to prove you're a skier. the highest grade was reserved for those who could link tight turns in powder, with skinny skis (because there were no shaped skis in the 80's and early 90's).

at least that was my experience as a teenager, that's what we strived for...

[Rasputin]

Hmmm....I really think this question has different answers depending on how close to major population centers a given resort is. If there is no large population base, low price season passes don't make much of a difference, however where there are hoards of skiers to accomodate, making the pass a really good deal might tip the scales and allow many to purchase a pass who otherwise would ski much less and pick their days with tickets.

Another factor is how far the resorts are from the population they serve, especially with gas prices skyrocketing. If I had to drive a 150 miles per ski day, I would ski a lot less than I do with a 25 mile round trip, not withstanding the price I paid for the pass, because time is an element too.

[Blurred]

Ski resorts charge money to make money. Like they give a fuck if it's crowded or not. More people mean more people in the resorts hotels, ski shops and restaurants. They make way more money when more people are there. Don't be fooled.

[4matic]

Kirkwood has had cheap passes and no crowds for years. It's changed. CHP are out at the entrance often and last year was record attendance They also have a fast growing asian population, at least it seems to me.

[Mofro261]

I spent less on skiing in 2006 than I spent in 1990 and I ski more now

Ditto. I paid ~$550-600 for a pass at Alpental in 1990. I'll pay $279 for that same pass this year. Alot more people buy the cheap pass now and its not just a reflection of a general population increase due to all you damn Californians infiltrating the PNW.

For me the cheap season pass has messed with my "resort" pow skiing experience, because now when I skip out for a pow day during the week it can be just as crowded as the weekend. On weekends arriving after 9:30am can mean no parking at all. WTF?


Ok, so I'm a confessed elitist-poachaholic, and while the extra people don't tend to get my powder on most days, they clog the damn lifts so that when it should take ~30 minutes to lap the goods it usually takes over an hour.


And they ALL have fat skis and I know they are secretely sniggering at me because I don't have fat skis ever since they helped my then 50-something overweight father ski effortless pow instead of sacking up and losing the wieght like I've been after him to do since his first pair of Chubbs back in 1996 so I've always thought fat skis = fat people and I'm really just an elitist snob who has issues with "fat things".


Carry on then.

[sea2ski]

Well it seems that if I save $1000 on a yearly pass that the benefits of having the extra money to spend on equipment and travel to other resorts benefits me more than an uncrowded parking lot. The goods have always gotten tracked out if you don't get there early or have a secret stash.

Every resort is trying to increase skier visits. Don't tell me that an expensive season pass is anything but a different strategy to run a mountain. If enough mountains find that it helps their bottom line, they will all do it.

[upallnight]

shmerham, i agree with you. i have however just one comment: skiing in powder has always been the big thing, the best way to prove you're a skier. the highest grade was reserved for those who could link tight turns in powder, with skinny skis (because there were no shaped skis in the 80's and early 90's).

at least that was my experience as a teenager, that's what we strived for...

yeah...but skiing pow now is a joke. i'm not saying it's not fun...but it's not challenging. skiing in fresh is easy (wasn't so back in the day), and fat skis reduce the barrier to entry.

now...give me chalky, grippy snow on a 50* face...

[upallnight]

I don't buy their argument that more expensive pass = less crowds. That's BS. Every morning driving 89 to Alpine I pass the Squaw turn off, and their are usually cars lined up all the way back to the Alpine turn off, waiting to head up the road and park @ Squaw.

that's sorta not far b/c you're coming from the north and cars heading north have to make the left for the squaw access road.

folks heading north on 89 could just as easily say "whoa...access to alpine is backed up all the way to the 7-11.

And on busy winter weekends, the majority of bay area peeps head to Squaw, with about equal amounts hitting N'Star and Alpine (more families at N'Star). Is it really true that you can always park witin 2 minutes of walking to the village/gondola @ Squaw, even on the busiest days? Just curious....

no, that's not a true statement... although there ARE essentially two areas to park that give you access to kt/red dog/the funi.

what may be a true statement is that you are more likely to be able to park 2 minutes from A lift @ squaw, even on a busy day. that lift may very well be far east (which was always my favorite for getting player parking), but it might not be 2 minutes from KT-22.

either way, both get crowded (like any resort) if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[cj001f]

folks heading north on 89 could just as easily say "whoa...access to alpine is backed up all the way to the 7-11.

except there isn't a backup to the 7-11.

the people I see "skiing the blacks" (and double blacks) look like a good match to the age profile of maggots - peak 25-35, bell curve trailing off each way.

tarkman's analysis sounds on the money

[f2f]

yeah...but skiing pow now is a joke. i'm not saying it's not fun...but it's not challenging. skiing in fresh is easy (wasn't so back in the day), and fat skis reduce the barrier to entry.

upallnight, even if people can "hack it" in powder, meaning that it's possible for them to go down a slope in a foot of fresh without falling (much), they still can't do it with style. how many amateur videos have you seen, even on this board, where you think 'wtf is this guy doing?'

they're having fun though, so more pow(d)er to them. truth is: there's only a limited number of people that will not be afraid to steal our line at any one time, just as there's only a limited number of people that will go in the backcountry for turns. for all i know, those are not my enemies, they are my friends. i don't care if they cheat...

... i think

ps: one of the few lines we captured last year (southwest had it bad for snow) has me skiing on a 176cm twin-tip skis with 78cm waist. and i'm not a very light guy, not at all:

http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtc...s/mvi-3203.avi

i'm proud of it not because it's an achievement of any sort for this board, but because i can "hack it" slightly better than i did 10 years ago. always learning

pps: i did buy fat skis last year

[upallnight]

except there isn't a backup to the 7-11.

well, if you're heading to AM from the north, you're gonna be backed up in squaw traffic, no?

i've definitely had plenty of slow rides on the AM access road...and anyone who has shown up just *after* they close the road for avy control knows how long that can take.

any crawl on squaw's access road (in my opinion) is negated by the extra mileage to AM + the ride down AM's access road. park @ far east @ squaw + you can be riding faster. (again, in my opinion/experience when i was living there....though i wasn't there as long as many other folks.)

[summit]

Over the last 2 years, I noticed fearless day ticket gapers were wandering and douching *everywhere*, good and bad, including into stashes (including those outside the ski area boundry) and following locals tracks to get their stashes. I think that had to do primarily with:
1. Industry/Media wholesale promotion of "backcountry" and "extreme" to gapers rather than a niche market
2. From the above, rental and gaper level retail pushing of fat skis
3. The good snow made it less risky to explore

It compounded as less aware locals then caught on ("If the Nebraskans are going there, what am I missing out on?"). Before I knew it, stashes that had been staying good for a few days after a storm were only safe for a few hours.

[Conundrum]

My home area Bogus was one of the first resorts to do a cheap pass. It was in 98/99 or so. The year before they sold a season pass for $450 (not too bad) and sold something like 7,000 passes for the year. Then, in '98, they sold them for $200 and sold 29,000. They've sold between 20 and 30,000 every year since. You can't tell me it's about hooking the locals up. They made $2.5 mil more that first year. That mountain is a f***in circus now. The only redeeming factor and reason I get a pass is they spin the chairs until 10 every night. Weekends are now for bc.

One cool thing they are doing is offering a deal for $250 for new skiers. For that, you get 4 lessons and the season worth of rentals and the season pass. The catch is you have to complete the 4 lessons before you are able to use your pass and you can't get rental equipment for free skiing until the 4 lessons are done. These classes are geared towards teaching skier ettiquette and skiing within your ability. It's been a successful program so far.

Screw the cheap passes but I do like the lesson, rental, pass program.

[JuiceIsLoose!]

I think it may also be important to note that the world's population is still going up. Not as fast in North America as other parts of the world, but it's rising everywhere but Europe (never been there to ski. How are their pass prices?).

On top of that, snow sports are more popular now than they have ever been. That the market for such activities continues to grow may be the bottom line cause for the crowds at your favorite hills.

News reports talk about how many new millionaires there were in such-and-such year. I wonder if the number of gapers is in any way proportional to that.
Just another example of corporatist government policies coming home to roost?

[JuiceIsLoose!]

I think it may also be important to note that the world's population is still going up. Not as fast in North America as other parts of the world, but it's rising everywhere but Europe (never been there to ski. How are their pass prices?).

On top of that, snow sports are more popular now than they have ever been. That the market for such activities continues to grow may be the bottom line cause for the crowds at your favorite hills.

News reports talk about how many new millionaires there were in such-and-such year. I wonder if the number of gapers is in any way proportional to that.
Just another example of corporatist government policies coming home to roost?

[flatlander#2]

cheap passes degrade the "experience" like cheap college chicks degrade the shag experience. stupid

[flatlander#2]

cheap passes degrade the "experience" like cheap college chicks degrade the shag experience. stupid

[flatlander#2]

cheap passes degrade the "experience" like cheap college chicks degrade the shag experience. stupid

[robokill1981]

Reno has a population of almost 200,000 (google) and Rose is 30 minutes away (mapquest). Cheap season passes or not your mountain is going to be crowded as all hell. Pricing people out of skiing to make your experience better is lame.

[gimpy]

if it wasn't for cheap passes, there's no doubt that i'd forego resort skiing all together. heavenlys got a pretty crappy layout and mostly mediocre terrain w/ hordes of raider starter jacket wearing clowns. but hey, a $300 pass to a hill 10 min's from home during a time in my life where time is more valuable then $$$. how can you not???

[The AD]

Wow, resorts trying to convince skiers the reason they charge a lot for season passes is to improve our skiing experience. If they can get people to drink that Kool-Aid it's tantamount to a Jedi mind trick.

[smolakian]

Just the title of this thread makes me want to gag. It sounds like you would be the second homeowner in a mountain town who lives there a month out of the year and votes against building the new rent controlled employee housing. I like to call it golf course mentality…If you set the hurdles high enough only rich white people can do it.

(I’m not implying racism here but there are strong parallels)

[Squatch]

One cool thing they are doing is offering a deal for $250 for new skiers. For that, you get 4 lessons and the season worth of rentals and the season pass. The catch is you have to complete the 4 lessons before you are able to use your pass and you can't get rental equipment for free skiing until the 4 lessons are done. These classes are geared towards teaching skier ettiquette and skiing within your ability. It's been a successful program so far.

Screw the cheap passes but I do like the lesson, rental, pass program.

I really like that idea. Seems like even a tiny bit of education makes the experience a lot better for everyone.