Farewell German Gotamas!

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Originally Posted by babel

Titanal is an aluminum alloy that contains no titanium. It is purchased by various ski manufactures in sheets. Not that much specializiation required from what I can see.

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interesting. Did a bit of research on titanal ......

http://www.hardbooter.com/news/archives/64-Titanal.html

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“Titanal® is a high strength, age hardenable aluminum-wrought-alloy”. Contrary to what many people may believe, Titanal® is not titanium and in fact does not contain any titanium. The chemical composition of Titanal® in weight percent breaks down to approximately 88.5% aluminum, 1.7% copper, 2.5% magnesium, 7% zinc, and 0.1% zirconium. Knowing the chemical composition allows for a comparison of this alloy to other familiar aluminum alloys. "

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I learned somethin new today ..... thanks to TGR:D

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Originally Posted by bagtagley

Maybe if Volkl had outsourced manufacturing to China 3 years ago, they could have invested enough in R&D to figure out that wooden sidewalls are fucking stupid.

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.... but they did look sweet.

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Originally Posted by bagtagley

Maybe if Volkl had outsourced manufacturing to China 3 years ago, they could have invested enough in R&D to figure out that wooden sidewalls are fucking stupid.

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Or, if they hadn't used wooden side walls, perhaps their warranty costs wouldn't have been so high that reducing unit costs substantially really began to make sense.

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Originally Posted by wildstyle

.... but they did look sweet.

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They were pretty cool. Actually when I first thought about buying a powder ski, the 04/05 wooden sidewall Gotamas were a big attraction.

Of course, after researching TGR and reading the myriad of problems posters had with theirs I went for the 05/06 model. Best of both worlds: Still black topsheet but with stronger sidewalls!

Do you remember those long lists of "In a perfect world vs. In a bad world" ?

"In a perfect world, all the engineers would be German, all the policemen would be English, all the cooks would be Italian...in a bad world, all the policemen would be German, all the cooks would be English, all the engineers would be Italian"
Can't remember any Chinese references. Feel free to add your own.

Perhaps it's all about the growing number of skiers in Asia ;)

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Originally Posted by TurxSki

Do you remember those long lists of "In a perfect world vs. In a bad world" ?

"In a perfect world, all the engineers would be German, all the policemen would be English, all the cooks would be Italian...in a bad world, all the policemen would be German, all the cooks would be English, all the engineers would be Italian"
Can't remember any Chinese references. Feel free to add your own.

Perhaps it's all about the growing number of skiers in Asia ;)

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Another version:

In a perfect world, all the policemen would be English, all the cooks would be French, all the lovers would be Italian and everything would be run by the Germans.

In a bad world, all the policemen would be French, all the cooks would be English, all the lovers would be German and everything would be run by the Italians.

China V Germany for ski manufacture

Quality - Splitting hairs

Ethicaly Social and Enviromental

A plant in Germany has to obey strict working hours, provide social benfits and pay decent wages a plant in China does not.

A plant in by Germany is bound the stricktest enviromental rules in the world. A plant in China has none.

Its a conscience thing not price or quality.

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Originally Posted by Idris

China V Germany for ski manufacture

Quality - Splitting hairs

Ethicaly Social and Enviromental

A plant in Germany has to obey strict working hours, provide social benfits and pay decent wages a plant in China does not.

A plant in by Germany is bound the stricktest enviromental rules in the world. A plant in China has none.

Its a conscience thing not price or quality.

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I think this is a very valid point. It certainly can be argued that international competition makes different environmental standards, social achievements and so forth difficult to maintain. However, I don't agree fully with this argument. IMO one of the biggest moral issues in the world right now is the unequal distribution of material wealth between different countries and regions. Also I don't believe in foreign aid and the like to solve these problems. I believe that the only real way of getting undeveloped countries up to the western standards (materially speaking) is to let them have access to compete in our markets. This is exactly what is happening with China right now.

So it is not at all clear to me whether it is more morally defendable to buy a ski from Germany than from China. I tend to think it is better to by skis from China from a moral standpoint.

Getting all political again, sorry:redface: or maybe not so sorry :biggrin:

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Originally Posted by Idris

China V Germany for ski manufacture

Quality - Splitting hairs

Ethicaly Social and Enviromental

A plant in Germany has to obey strict working hours, provide social benfits and pay decent wages a plant in China does not.

A plant in by Germany is bound the stricktest enviromental rules in the world. A plant in China has none.

Its a conscience thing not price or quality.

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I am sure all your clothing is made in Germany, Switzerland, France and the US. Gimme a break, will you????:nonono2:

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Originally Posted by KANUTTEN

I believe that the only real way of getting undeveloped countries up to the western standards (materially speaking) is to let them have access to compete in our markets. This is exactly what is happening with China right now.

So it is not at all clear to me whether it is more morally defendable to buy a ski from Germany than from China. I tend to think it is better to by skis from China from a moral standpoint.

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That would be the case if we were talking of a Chinese ski company selling skis in Europe/US, not of a Euro/US company building skis in China cheaper and selling them at the same price so they can make more money.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Be careful with this statement. It isn't always about how the skis are made versus what they are made out of. China may not have the expertise in ski building but they may have expertise in the new, exotic materials going into skis now. Case in point: DP skis.

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No, the Euros still have the edge. Ski Trab has 30 years of experience using "new exotic materials" to save weight without sacrificing performance. They 1st used carbon fiber in skis over 20 years ago, which is considerably more experience and expertise than the "carbon fiber pioneers" manufacturing in China. Trab's engineers are also well aware of manufacturing challenges carbon fiber presents and the potential for delam and breakage issues to occur. They long ago recognized the benefits of using a wood core, not just last year; and have been developing light weight yet durable and stiff cores ever since.

You're trying to tell us that a company who measures flex by supporting the skis at both ends and than adding weight to the middle is technologically superior to one that actually uses dedicated hydraulic machinery to test and measure flex & breaking points both longitudinally and torsionally? One who waits for the end user to break the skis is more advanced than a company who has machinery dedicated to testing impact resistance?

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Originally Posted by Alpinist

That would be the case if we were talking of a Chinese ski company selling skis in Europe/US, not of a Euro/US company building skis in China cheaper and selling them at the same price so they can make more money.

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I partially disagree. The payroll still goes to chinese workers even if the company is german/us. Many foreign comps in china -> higher demand for chinese labour -> higher chinese wages. Maybe a long term thing, but still those forces are at work...

The "redistributioneffect" would be greater still if the company was actually owned by chinamen, provided they had the expertise to make skis. That I don't think they have though.

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Originally Posted by KANUTTEN

I partially disagree. The payroll still goes to chinese workers even if the company is german/us.

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Don't kid yourself: it's just 5% of the payroll paid to their german workers, so the other 95% goes to the company's pocket.

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Originally Posted by KANUTTEN

Many foreign comps in china -> higher demand for chinese labour -> higher chinese wages. Maybe a long term thing, but still those forces are at work...

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I would say pretty, pretty, pretty darn long term. Start counting now: 1, 2, 3...and stop when you reach 1.3 Bn!!!! When people started to talk about the "long-term perspective", a biz school prof of mine used to say: "In the long term, we're all dead".

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Originally Posted by tele mark

No, the Euros still have the edge. Ski Trab has 30 years of experience using "new exotic materials" to save weight without sacrificing performance. They 1st used carbon fiber in skis over 20 years ago, which is considerably more experience and expertise than the "carbon fiber pioneers" manufacturing in China. Trab's engineers are also well aware of manufacturing challenges carbon fiber presents and the potential for delam and breakage issues to occur. They long ago recognized the benefits of using a wood core, not just last year; and have been developing light weight yet durable and stiff cores ever since.

You're trying to tell us that a company who measures flex by supporting the skis at both ends and than adding weight to the middle is technologically superior to one that actually uses dedicated hydraulic machinery to test and measure flex & breaking points both longitudinally and torsionally? One who waits for the end user to break the skis is more advanced than a company who has machinery dedicated to testing impact resistance?

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I have no expertise to this arguement. I just think there is a mystique and stigma about things manufactured in Europe that is sometimes justified and sometimes not. I don't know the manufacturing processes of either Trab or DP other than DP tried to get it done in NA and had shitty luck and so far, seem to be doing well with China. K2 seems to be doing ok other than tarnishing their rep a bit.

I'm not saying the DP has better technology than Trab, that would comparing a North American company to a Europeen company. What I was trying to say is that once given direction on how to build a ski, the Chinese will probably be good at it because they may have experience in working with different materials...maybe not though too.

But now for your Trab vs. DP arguement. I've never skied on Trab skis nor really want to. After being in the business for 30 years and also being noted as a carbon ski pioneer, explain why their FREERIDE ski is 78 mm underfoot-really pioneering some new boundaries there. Who knows how well DPs will hold up but at least they are trying new shapes/widths from the norm.

And as for quality and flex, DP is a start-up company. Measuring flex with weight sounds like a good idea to me versus spending thousands of dollars on equipment in their first year only to pass those costs on to me. Maybe after they've been around 30 years, they can get some better stuff.

Maybe my arguement will be blown out of the water after all the DPs implode next year but I don't think that will happen. Who knows?

"I don't see Patek Phillipe starting to manufacture their watches" but the typical PP customer isn't cruising e-bay and the exchange forums of various boards so they can save 7$ compared to buying from their local retailer...

plus since K2 moved production to China from the USA haven't their warranty issues pretty much disappeared?

C,

DP has done a good job of being very creative with shapes and sizes and taking light weight technology into new areas design wise. This is good for the market as it produces a new variety of lightweight skis designed for a category not filled by many offerings. I don't believe one firm's experience and expertise results in a whole country or region having that same experience and expertise, as it takes a collective environment to do so. In the context of this thread China seems to be developing some experience, however I would hesitate to say they are leaders in the field.

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Originally Posted by tele mark

C,

DP has done a good job of being very creative with shapes and sizes and taking light weight technology into new areas design wise. This is good for the market as it produces a new variety of lightweight skis designed for a category not filled by many offerings. I don't believe one firm's experience and expertise results in a whole country or region having that same experience and expertise, as it takes a collective environment to do so. In the context of this thread China seems to be developing some experience, however I would hesitate to say they are leaders in the field.

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Agreed, but I think the US had better get its shit together or our leading industry will be service and all of our manufacturing will shift to Asia for not only cheaper labor, but sheer quality too. Asia is pushing technological limits right now and I wouldn't be surprised if they have the edge in anything deemed new technology in the next few years.

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Originally Posted by waxman

"I don't see Patek Phillipe starting to manufacture their watches" but the typical PP customer isn't cruising e-bay and the exchange forums of various boards so they can save 7$ compared to buying from their local retailer...

plus since K2 moved production to China from the USA haven't their warranty issues pretty much disappeared?

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Well, maybe not $7 dollars, but....

http://cgi.ebay.com/Patek-Phillipe-1...QQcmdZViewItem