Ok, that's it; nobody else move to Utah

Yes, there are millions of people starving, and it is criminal that this occurs, but the point that even India produces enough food for its population actually makes the point that the humans can easily sustain themselves.
As for us poisoning ourselves through our agricultural practices, I look at it in the opposite way. It is through agricultural advancements that we are able to feed everyone (even though we don't). Farming is far more effective today than it has ever been because of how different it is now.
And from what I know, there's plenty of unfrozen fresh water to be had, it's just a matter of getting it where it's needed, and to stop using it stupidly (making deserts into lawns). To say nothing of more difficult schemes like desalinating (is that the word?) salt water.

Stoy,

Perhaps poisoning ourselves as a whole isn't a bad thing. That way we might not have an extended human lifespan into the 90's, thereby increasing the population and the burden of taking care of our elderly.

Twisted, cynical, elitist, self righteous, I know. But it's not only new borns, it's also the increasing life span of the human.

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Originally Posted by jayfrizzo

Support this statement with some numbers.

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Numbers are too much work. How about some concepts instead?

The population on this island has doubled in the last 12 years. Many people, especially real estate agents, are getting rich. In fact, real estate sales commissions is the top earned income category here. Businesses, especially tourist businesses and land speculation and development are booming.

The downsides: Wage earners can no longer live here. Over the past 12 years, the number of volunteer firefighters, typically working class members of society has fallen from 24 to 4 between the northend adn west side stations, where land is most valuable. The county is facing an affordable housing crisis. All of the gardeners, housemaids and laborers who have taken the newly created jobs live packed like sardines into the few single wide trailer available in the trailer parks. Right now, there are about 400 living in a 3 acre park.

Most of the locals no longer bother fishing. What was once a significant salmon fishing port no longer supports a commercial fishery at all. The cost of catching a wild salmon (in gas, boat, time) now pushes the cost into the ludicrous level.

Local family farms, the other mainstay of the economy for 100 years are no longer viable, due to increasing land values and land taxes.

The taxes taken in, however, are insufficient to pay for the increasing services. The county keeps cutting, but the cost of living keeps forcing the entry level wages up. There is a constant turnover in dispatchers, and the number of deputys has been cut. Drug use, however, is rampant. Last week a 7 year went to the ER for accidental ingestion of meth. Her mother lived right nest to the grade school. People who have lived here for many years continue to see their taxes go up to pay for more road repairs, more ambulance calls, more court cases.

Children who grow up here leave. They have to. Entry level for a modular home on 1/10th acre is 250,000. Supermarket bagger jobs don't support that.

People move here because it's a beautiful sleepy idyllic place with beautiful scenery and wildlife and a sense of community. All of those things are eroding as more move here.

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Originally Posted by jayfrizzo

Support this statement with some numbers.

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7
6561
15
1874002
1323
9872342323
454

Hey, I hope none of you guys who support this planned non-parenthood plan consider yourselves pro-choice, because you're not. You believe in reproductive freedom of choice even less than the looniest reactionary right wing nutballs. I hope you don't believe that you support civil liberties, because you don't. The process of proving to the government that you should qualify to have kids would be a ridiculous invasion of civil liberties, the likes of which have never been seen in this country.

You don't get to tell other people whether or not they get to have kids. Nobody gets to tell anyone that.

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Originally Posted by tonghands

Hey, I hope none of you guys who support this planned non-parenthood plan consider yourselves pro-choice, because you're not. You believe in reproductive freedom of choice even less than the looniest reactionary right wing nutballs. I hope you don't believe that you support civil liberties, because you don't. The process of proving to the government that you should qualify to have kids would be a ridiculous invasion of civil liberties, the likes of which have never been seen in this country.

You don't get to tell other people whether or not they get to have kids. Nobody gets to tell anyone that.

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:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Trackhead
In the end, the only solution is vasectomy/tubal ligation. End of story.

It's all about population. Nearly every problem we all bitch about (high crude oil prices, polution, overcrowding, tracked out backcountry) is all about too many friggin people on the planet.

We will destroy ourselves. And I find it amusing in a cynical way. The most 'advanced' species on earth, killing themselves.

I have long wanted to start a clinic where you get your fertility 'activated' by a panel of folks who first checks that you have the following.

1. employment
2. clean urine drug screen (no meth, heroin, cocaine, etc)
3. three years of past W-2's to prove consistent employment/responsiblity
4. don't live with your parents
5. are not on medicaid, food stamps, or any other government assistance

Definitely, I don't know why we let poor people have children at all. It's offensive that you're allowed to bring children up in this world if you happen to be unemployed or are on public assistance. But how do you enforce it... and what if someone cheats? Maybe we should add forced abortions to the picture as well. You get pregnant and we find out you're actually poor, you MUST have an abortion.... yeah, that would save water and leave more SuperUnleaded for the rest of us... great idea.

By the way... I'm a bit confused... are we pissed off with "capitalists" for using up our already meager resources or the poor people who live on our planet with us who can't afford it?

Rich people suck, Poor people suck... I only support people in my economic situation... Maybe after a couple of years of successful operation, your panel of estemed fertility gods could also decide what living people are entitled to continue living.... we could jail those who don't fit into your simple 5 point plan and maybe "eliminate" or "cleanse" them if the jails got too crowded... oh wait... someone tried that before...

Damnit... back to the drawing board.

I think some people are confusing "sustainable" with "feed ourselves next year." If it isn't going to be there for the next generation to utilize it isn't sustainable.

So, farming in the Punjab, while being the most productive place on the planet, is not currently sustainable when you look at how fast the water table is dropping. They litterally have to drill new wells every day to keep up with the dropping water table.

We may have passed the earth's carrying capacity. The neat thing about that concept is that you won't see a decline until well after you have passed it. We won't just hit a population number and the next day population will decline. Also, if you are having to import resources into an ecosystem, that means you have passed the carrying capacity.

All of this discussion is great, but we are never going to make a change until it starts hitting us in the pocket book. And that won't happen until the ecological damage caused by the creation of a product is calculated into the unit price of a good.

I'll take the position offensive to the right and left in this argument:

No more tax breaks for families, no more welfare, no more subsidized housing and people will think a whole lot harder about having children.

No more tax breaks to business, no more subsidizing job creation, no more subsidizing development and people will think a whole lot harder about paving more ground.

Deep breath in, deep breath out............ahhhh, you feel better now? I do.

Exageration to make a point. Learn to see through it, think outside the box, don't take everything you hear or read literally.

I've got someone saving a space for me out there. So neener.

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Originally Posted by tonghands

You don't get to tell other people whether or not they get to have kids. Nobody gets to tell anyone that.

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Obviously this is true, but I think grrrr is on the right track. No, we can't outright "ban" people from having kids, but we shouldn't be supporting people who choose to have children when they aren't capable of supporting them themselves.

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Originally Posted by The AD

Obviously this is true, but I think grrrr is on the right track. No, we can't outright "ban" people from having kids, but we shouldn't be supporting people who choose to have children when they aren't capable of supporting them themselves.

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Unfortunately, if we don't 'support' them, the child pays the price. We spoon feed the parent to have more kids.

Let everyone move out of the Northeast for all I care - leaves more great skiing for those of us smart enough to stay :wink:

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Unfortunately, if we don't 'support' them, the child pays the price.

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This is true, but I guess my response is: "tough."

the govt shouldnt be in the business of incentivizing people to reproduce. people who have children and can't/won't support them should have them taken away, not given more money. there are plenty of people who can't have their own children and willing to adopt. they can financialy support these kids and provide good homes. sounds kind of harsh, but so is having a child raise themselves in squalor with their parents using govt support $'s to finance their drug/alcohol habit.

Really it comes down to setting fires. We need to set the occasional suburban neighborhood fire to thin our numbers. Keep the fire trucks at home. I also like the idea of 1 in 3 school lunches being poisoned in poorer neighborhoods.

I work in an ER. I see the worst of the US population on a daily basis (drunks, assaults, prisoners, meth heads, etc) My view point is therefore quite skewed.

My biggest beef is with Medicaid. I bust my ass, pay taxes, pay expensive health premiums. When I go to the doctor or ER, I pay out the nose for co-pay's, deductibles, non-covered expenses, etc. Guess what, Medicaid recipients DON'T PAY SHIT! They come to the ER for sore throats, cough's, minor complaints that are clearly abuse of the system and non-emergent. Often times they can afford a carton of cigarette's, but not a bottle of Tylenol or Pediprofen for there child with a fever. So we give them a prescription for an over the counter med so Medicaid will pay it. Nice. :rolleyes:

When Democrats speak how they want to expand health care coverage, it makes me want to puke. It will be expanded, but it still won't affect the middle class. More and more social programs IMHO makes us weak and apethetic.

Again, my opinion is skewed, take it with a grain of salt.

Anarchy is the only solution that will lead the human species to the freedom we so desire. Anything else is bureaucracy which leads to corruption, which leads to anger, which leads to hate, which leads to McDonalds.

No, Trackhead. Dem's have consistently supported health care for all Americans, not just those who can afford it or the poor (as you said). And obviously the reason you see what you do in the ER is the result of Republican obstruction (on behalf of the insurance industry) of primary health care for the poor, which forces all those problems, at far greater expense, into the ER. If we had national health care costs for everyone would go down, and the only losers might be some doctors/administrators who wouldn't see the six and seven figure paychecks they currently do. Oh, and maybe some insurance companies.

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Originally Posted by AlpineZone

Let everyone move out of the Northeast for all I care - leaves more great skiing for those of us smart enough to stay :wink:

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I used to not like this alias, but s/he is getting better all the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Guess what, Medicaid recipients DON'T PAY SHIT! They come to the ER for sore throats, cough's, minor complaints that are clearly abuse of the system and non-emergent.

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I can tell you that they don't come in thier own car either. They use the emergency taxi.

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Originally Posted by flykdog

I can tell you that they don't come in thier own car either. They use the emergency taxi.

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Ha!!! Healthcare in the US is so broken.

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Originally Posted by tonghands

You don't get to tell other people whether or not they get to have kids. Nobody gets to tell anyone that.

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If people don't tell you that, reality will tell you that -- in an infinitely more painful way.

When you are dying of hunger because excessive grazing makes the Sahara desert grow and blow sand over your village's fields, reality is telling you "you don't get to have kids".

When your religion makes you reproduce until every square foot of your country is cultivated to feed you -- and then you have a few drought years or a flood and tens of thousands of you die -- reality is telling you "you don't get to have kids".

When there are too many of you in one place, and there isn't enough water or grazing land or farmland to go around, and they give you a machete or a gun and send you off to war and you get shot or cut and bleed to death on a battlefield, reality is telling you "you don't get to have kids".

When your government dams the Nile, and instead of yearly floods that replenish the soil, you have hundreds of square miles of flat water that breed mosquitoes and parasites, and the shrimp, fish, and sardine fisheries have disappeared, and people are dying of hunger and bilharziasis and malaria -- reality is telling you "you don't get to have kids".

We don't notice this in the United States, because we have a large country rich in natural resources, and have only been exploiting them for 150-250 years. However, we can easily look just like Bangladesh or Ethiopia if we want: just keep piling on the people until everyone is just as hungry and desperate as everywhere else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grrrr

I'll take the position offensive to the right and left in this argument:

No more tax breaks for families, no more welfare, no more subsidized housing and people will think a whole lot harder about having children.

No more tax breaks to business, no more subsidizing job creation, no more subsidizing development and people will think a whole lot harder about paving more ground.

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Read Malthus? He'd love you. Marx would hate you.

The way I see it, people are going to have kids regardless. Not because they want kids, but because sex is fun. Unfortunately, protected sex is a luxery people in third world countries can't afford. Instead of blaming poor people for doing what comes naturally to all of us, we need to strive to eliminate disparities in wealth. Capitalism REQUIRES a poor population to ensure cheap labor for the rich. As long as we are driven by a capitalist economy, global population will probably increase.

Because the US is very wealthy, we will probably see a stabalizing population in the future, assuming imigration slows or even stops. However, the population in the third world is going to continue to explode until we find a way to eliminate poverty, which I don't ever see happening.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PaSucks

Unfortunately, protected sex is a luxery people in third world countries can't afford.

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It seems like 50 cents or $1 for a condom is a whole lot cheaper than caring for a child.

I support John Kerry's stance on health care for kids. And it's true, all private insurance companies are crooks, with the bottom line being the dollar made.

On a smaller scale, perhaps if a co-pay was required at the time of visit to the ER, medicaid patients might think twice about coming into the ER for a sorethroat. It's the Big Mac, fries and a coke mentality. Why wait to see my private doctor when I can go to the ER free of charge and get instant gratification.

I personally don't know what the answer is reguarding the health care issue. I think it is a big quagmire without a simple solution, like a political thread.:wink:

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Originally Posted by meatdrink9

Ha!!! Healthcare in the US is so broken.

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Actually it is. We are supposed to be the richest country in the world, yet, most Americans lack health insurance. We have a program, such as Medicaid and Medicare, that are losers...LOSERS! and broken and could use a fixing....but let's fix and privatize Social Security, which is so broken its in the black.

I brought up the India example because it is just one of many I could have used. They export, their country starves. They also import and their country starves. Every country does the same and thats why we need to look at the ENTIRE environment, not just pockets because everything is based off of one another.

Some may think the micro-invertebrates in the Snake River have nothing to do with the economy of California, Washington, ORegon, IDaho...well they do.

Some may think that damming the Columbia has nothing to do with Utah...it does. Hundreds of salmon actually swim upstream to spawn near the Raft Rivers.

It is all connected, which a lot of people clearly cannot see.

I think a good example of this was the devastating volcanic eruption that occurred, i forget when, in SE Asia that put a cloud over the US, changed weather patterns, killed fish and wildlife and plants, sent people to the hospital...the list goes on.

Do we really want to look at the big picture? maybe. I do. And do we really want the world's population to double to 12 billion? That's a tough call but I can only imagine the poverty, diseases, pollution, and the like that will set in. Its a scary thought.

Population control should be taken upon ourselves to relieve our society of what may happen, voluntarily of course. If not, we might be heading down a dark and grim alley.

Tax the churches.

If we socialize medicine, you're grandmother will not be able to get an Endarterectomy until she has a stroke, versus prior to her stroke. Or your grandfather won't be able to have angioplasty done until after he has a heart attack.

That MRI for your knee you blew, forget it, might have to wait a few months.

Again, what is the answer? I'm not sure there is one.

Living in Canada, I see the problems associated with national healthcare. My g/f's dad lost his leg because he had to wait months for a routine vein by-pass. Ask him how well national healthcare works. Like Trackhead said about medicare, people in Canada show up to the emergency room to blow their nose. It clogs up the triage and hurts people with real issues. There was a report about people dying from heart attacks because they were forced to wait in overcrowded/understaffed ER. There is a shortage of qualified staff because the pay sucks. Lastly, you still pay roughly the same amount as private healthcare, just in the form of TAXES. National healthcare is not the answer. It doesn't work.

Don't nationalize healthcare, nationalize insurance.

The problem is the intelligent people that realize that overpopulation is the source of all the worlds ills take steps to have a small number of children, while the idiots who don't see the big picture have 10 kids. This creates a reverse Darwin effect, which will ultimately result in God blowing up this planet, and ending this failed experiment.

Stoy: Pinatubo? Not exactly an emergency here.

And Trackhead: Don't go blaming all the Democrats. The last effort to overhaul Medicare was by a Democrat (who is now the Jr. Senator of NY) and was subsequently laughed out of committee... by Republicans. The Welfare Reform Act is in place and has had a positive effect on reducing the rolls. It was championed and signed into law by: A Democrat.


Also, let's not confuse migration (to an extent) with Population Growth. People move around in the US to seek oppotunity, not to escape the crowds (for the most part.)

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

Don't nationalize healthcare, nationalize insurance.

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If it's broken, let the governement fix it. Their track record is impeccable.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

If we socialize medicine, you're grandmother will not be able to get an Endarterectomy until she has a stroke, versus prior to her stroke. Or your grandfather won't be able to have angioplasty done until after he has a heart attack.

That MRI for your knee you blew, forget it, might have to wait a few months.

Again, what is the answer? I'm not sure there is one.

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That is simply not true. Go to Germany and see how long you have to wait for an MRI.

Preventive Medicine is one of the cornerstones of a good Socialized Medicine program. In those countries where it's utilized (Norway & Sweden, eg) the average health & lifespan are greater than here. Do not believe the Hype.

I honestly would like to model our Healthcare system after Cuba's, which given their limitations in infrastructure and materiel, is awe-inspiringly great.

Solution: Live fast; die young; leave a good looking corpse. (says the guy in his 30's ;) )

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Originally Posted by Tippster

Preventive Medicine is one of the cornerstones of a good Socialized Medicine program. In those countries where it's utilized (Norway & Sweden, eg) the average health & lifespan are greater than here. Do not believe the Hype.

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Again, a black hole discussion.

But here is how OUR government (not Germany) responds to preventative health care.

Medicaid patients don't get coverage for dental hygiene, but tooth extraction is covered. Hmmmmmmmm...........extraction is not preventative, hygiene is.

I agree that preventative medicine is the best medicine. But look at OUR society, it won't work. We eat ourselves into morbid obesity and have a frigging gastric bypass to lose weight!!!!!!!! Some of our stupid ass insurance companies pay for this invasive procedure too. It makes me sick that my premiums increase because people have a 10,000+ dollar surgery to correct years of stuffing their faces. We don't exercise or eat right, then have a four vessel coronary bypass. We are an instant gratification society, buy it on the credit card, pay it later.

Believe me, I don't subscribe to the hype. And I voted for Kerry, not because of health care reform.

I was thinking of Ogden, so that doesn't count right? :D

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Originally Posted by Stoysluttie1

Actually it is.....lot's of other words

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I wasn't being sarcastic. It's totally FUKT, but we're not going to solve it here today on a message board. ;)

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Originally Posted by meatdrink9

I wasn't being sarcastic. It's totally FUKT, but we're not going to solve it here today on a message board. ;)

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Fucking non believers. We'll solve it damnit! :the_finge