Did they do everything perfectly within their level? 3 people died. Surely there is something we can learn here. It would give their tragic loss more meaning.
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Did they do everything perfectly within their level? 3 people died. Surely there is something we can learn here. It would give their tragic loss more meaning.
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I keep going back to a conversation that Cookie MOnster started on here a year or so ago, where we try to balance Desire and Uncertainty. High desire and high uncertainty = gambling.
So how do I resolve these? I don't want to omit desire- it is the root of inspiration. But to balance it I resolve uncertainty somewhat. I try to find a system for decision-making to use: it may be simple like Alptruth or more complex like the 7 common problems or Volken's Likelihood and Consequences matrix.
Whatever it is, I take that crucial moment of planning and introspection (that someone here earlier referred to as the voice screaming in your ear) to stop, have myself or my friend give me the smack-down, "is this what we should be doing right now? Is this the correct terrain and technique for these conditions?"
Gaining clarity on the difference between what I want to do and what I think we OUGHT to do is the goal.
I don't know the terrain and the decision-making in the Stevens Pass group; I am deeply sorry for their losses, which are all of our losses. but I am desperately trying to learn how NOT to let that happen to me ahead of time, not as 20/20 hindsight. And I am trying to learn how to teach that respect and awareness. All these discussions are helpful, not disrespectful. I have dedicated a large part of my professional life to keeping people from dying in avalanches, and it hurts when these things happen. We have to look critically at accidents, we learn a lot, even though it is painful, especially from the inside.
been a scary snowpack in much of the west this season. stuffs been running on lower angled slopes (INCLUDING HEAVILY TREED SLOPES) than what has been the norm. weird snowpack=weird avalanches. avi danger appeared to be rated at high or damn close to it. big group of folks or many folks in the area creates camaraderie and comfort. familiarity with terrain causes complacency. desire. pow fever.Quote:
Originally Posted by homemadesalsa
lots of red flags present. pick one or two.
unfortunately folks died. never forget this when you feel yerself teetering on the edge of being human.
rog
Much of the west's snowpack this season has absolutely zero to do with the PNW snowpack this past weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by icelanticskier
Lots of good BC skiing gets very safely done on high danger days.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdironRider
The way the avy was described as "coming through the trees" I wonder if another party triggered it on top of them.
Quote:
I don't know the terrain and the decision-making in the Stevens Pass group; I am deeply sorry for their losses, which are all of our losses. but I am desperately trying to learn how NOT to let that happen to me ahead of time, not as 20/20 hindsight. And I am trying to learn how to teach that respect and awareness. All these discussions are helpful, not disrespectful. I have dedicated a large part of my professional life to keeping people from dying in avalanches, and it hurts when these things happen. We have to look critically at accidents, we learn a lot, even though it is painful, especially from the inside.
Well stated Lynn, I don't see commenting on this particular section as disrespectful.
Over in the This Sounds Bad thread? absolutely.
But this section of the forum is about discussion, not "vibes"
I can't speak for everyone, but I don't ski for "fun". I ski because I could not live my life without skiing. That passion carries a certain degree of risk of death. I think a lot of people playing this game don't comprehend that fact and think they can mitigate circumstances all the time and never have a problem. Those people are fooling themselves. Death lurks in every aspect of skiing. You could catch an edge ripping a groomer and kiss a tree. Lights out. How many times have you tomahawked through terrain that you shouldn't be tomahawking through? Shit happens. Sometimes that's the only way to describe it. If you don't like the risks, then don't play the game.
your point? insight? high danger? scary? i did say "much" not all.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
rog
Sure it does, if you are skiing in avalanche terrain there is always a chance that the slope will slide and kill you, just like if you are ice climbing there is always a risk the ice will fall off the cliff and kill you. The trick is minimizing objective risk, its impossible to eliminate it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by sfotex
"its what we do"Quote:
Originally Posted by powder11
and defines who we are
call em variables, acts of nature, mistakes, whateveer
but in high risk high reward actvities like skiing, ww rowing, climbing, base huckin, xstreme mntbikin ect
shit that stokes the soul and brings the shit eatin grin happens
shit that makes ya dead also happens
If ya ask me givin a chance for the deceased to be laid to rest and fam and friends a chance to morn for a day or two
and a professional incident report to come out
before you start the mmacqbin would show respect becomin of callin yourself a maggot.
I don't know how to say this, but skiing has gotten really scary. With all that technology has delivered to this revolution, skiing has become insanely easy. I can rip a forest at GS speeds and arcs without even needing to open my mouth to breathe. It's like sitting on the couch it's so damn easy. It used to be different. Harder to get after.
10 years ago I stopped competing in BM events. I got hurt, many times, and inherited the fear of falling. I don't fear that anymore. I fear dying. I swear to god I am hauling ass in terrain that used to require billy-goat punches and a reality check. I just drift by on my fatties like it's Tuesday night at Bub's.
Go-Pros enter our world. Suddenly all my bros are pimping POV footage like it's still Tuesday. And with that comes hoards of- Holy shit, he's dead. Every year for the last 10 years has delivered to me a story of 1, 2 or 3 people that I actually know dying doing what I do on Tuesday, for fun.
Everyone is like - Go for it! Live your life! Get stoked!
Seriously? 50 years ago there were a few guys hanging it out there. Now- EVERYONE is getting after it because it's so fucking easy. Then nature happens, avalanches hit and the ski world is like- Oh, yeah, be careful too.
I never knew before I quit competing how dangerous my lifestyle was. When I used to compete there were no digital cameras. No YouTube. People weren't spreading the word like they can now. It was different. People that died were simply statistics. Now they're my friends because I hear their stories.
This is the same shit it has ever been. But now we keep in touch, connect, and hear about people dying doing what we do every day. The only thing that changed is that now we hear about it. And it's fucking scary. Skiing is way more real than it ever has been.
Shit Happens. Yeah- now we hear about it, too.
bloggers blog
skiers ski
Alex Lowe dying in an avy he didn't set off from a vertical mile above = ObjectiveQuote:
Originally Posted by ak_powder_monkey
Someone with a bunch of avy training ignoring a bunch of red flags on a high danger day and getting caught = ????? Said person must belive they can control the
risks with their skill and training. (<- not directed at the Steven's accident, I don't know anything about it.) To me this
is like when the newspaper says 'The avalanche struck without warning...'
just want to say i ski in fernie and me and my crew prob tour the sidecountry there as much as anyone. we usually open the skin tracks after every storm and push for deep lines in the trees. we are in a big storm cycle right now and hill is on lockdown for avi danger. yesterday we went to a spot we ski all the time . on the skin track there was a natural release in a steep pad about 60 ft wide and 12 to 16 inches deep. there were many red flags and i was uncomfortable. we went up just a little to poke around my friend jumped on a small roller and i hears a settlement around us. oh yeah we have that layer of surface hoar that is now 60 cms down and surface facets. i pulled the plug told the boys "go on without me but im not feeling it". 2 guys agreed with me but i think my other friend wanted to push on and tickle some slabs. i felt good about my decision. but he is already talking about going ob and i feel our danger is getting worse not better. he has taken a week long level 1 in canada and been in 2 slides but seems to want to push it even more instead of taking a conservative outlook. just some thoughts but some ski partners can be tough to deal with...
smug twit rambling regarding decision making. Deep Breathing, The Avalanche Review, 28(2) [pdf]
http://www.americanavalancheassociat...28_2_LoRes.pdf
Tell him to smarten the fuck up and never be the odd man out...always have some one that you trust who will pull the plug with you when you start to question what you're getting in to otherwise it's possible you'll be left on your own or stuck failing forwards. Operations level courses don't mean a thing when you don't apply it, it's just a piece of paper.Quote:
just want to say i ski in fernie and me and my crew prob tour the sidecountry there as much as anyone. we usually open the skin tracks after every storm and push for deep lines in the trees. we are in a big storm cycle right now and hill is on lockdown for avi danger. yesterday we went to a spot we ski all the time . on the skin track there was a natural release in a steep pad about 60 ft wide and 12 to 16 inches deep. there were many red flags and i was uncomfortable. we went up just a little to poke around my friend jumped on a small roller and i hears a settlement around us. oh yeah we have that layer of surface hoar that is now 60 cms down and surface facets. i pulled the plug told the boys "go on without me but im not feeling it". 2 guys agreed with me but i think my other friend wanted to push on and tickle some slabs. i felt good about my decision. but he is already talking about going ob and i feel our danger is getting worse not better. he has taken a week long level 1 in canada and been in 2 slides but seems to want to push it even more instead of taking a conservative outlook. just some thoughts but some ski partners can be tough to deal with...
Time2climb is "spot-on" as my British friends say. An Avie education without the discipline to apply the knowledge is worthless.
i'm really tired of hearing this. just because YOU can't travel safely on a high danger day doesn't mean others can't. i recall a statistic stating that something like half of avalanche deaths occur in MODERATE DANGER!!Quote:
Originally Posted by AdironRider
and NOBODY has EVER died inbounds of an avalanche on a high danger day...ever...
81% of avalanche fatalities occur in moderate or considerable danger.Quote:
Originally Posted by AfroMullet
And there is the rub. Sure, you can TRAVEL safely on a high danger day, I now folks that do just for sport and to see things come down. You can't SKI whatever you want, maybe nothing, on a high danger day. Problem is that many do, and die.Quote:
Originally Posted by AfroMullet
I just read through this thread; very somber and thought provoking. I didn't know those who died in the Stevens Pass slide but know at least one person who was there and know a number of people who knew one or more of the victim's. These were very knowledgeable, experienced people who got caught in a very unfortunate situation. My initial response wasn't that they were stupid or anything of the sort. Rather, it was anger over their having lost their lives. That is what remains and the only thought, other than natural grief and condolences.
Why not be mad because they may have done something 'stupid'? Because there is realization that risk is part of what we do and, frankly, part of WHY we do it. Eric Pehota said it well in "Steep". It's the ultimate paradox; the closer we get to the edge of death, the more alive we are. Sometimes that edge can be vividly defined, other times the definition of the edge is more blurred. At times, we get too close to the edge and, unfortunately, at times, people go over. But what are the alternatives; sit home and watch TV on the couch, dying from a heart attack? I guess that's fine for some but for others, that's not life but is merely existence. Most who are here likely view it as the latter.
Snow science isn't exact, as most sciences aren't. It's very good and improves continuously through experience and investigation but will never be perfect. There are myriad variables on any particular slope on any particular day during any particular cycle during any particular season. There are two types of choice makers. Those who really have little or no knowledge of what they're getting into but go anyway. That's probably just a stupid decision. Then there are those who, like the Stevens Pass group, know a lot but are simply caught in a bad situation. The more a person knows, the more apt they are to potentially push toward the edge. Why is that? Probably because knowing and becoming more experienced is a conscious choice made due to the desire to get closer to the edge, more alive.
In any decision making exercise, it's always best to get as many facts known as possible in order to mitigate the potential to make the wrong decision. Generally though, there is no collection of facts that is 100% risk free in a decision. Perhaps you can get to 95% risk free but rarely ever 100% risk free. In snow science, it's hard to believe that decisions can get much more risk free, other than to just decide you're never going to ski again. But then our existence becomes existence, not life.
This is a difficult subject. "Shit happens" is probably as good an explanation as any as to why some of the very most experienced and knowledgeable people die in the back country. Saying they were 'stupid morons' is second-guessing and essentially equivalent to deciding to never ski again, at least outside the boundaries. If not for the human instinct to explore our limits, take risks with our lives to further our sense of life, curiosity about what's past the edge of the ocean's horizon, where would we, as a species, be? No Magellan, no Neal Armstrong, no Chuck Yeager, no human advancement? As humans, this is part of our DNA. I don't see how we escape it and I don't see an end to people dying doing what we do in skiing or any other risk oriented activities. Becoming more knowledgeable and more experienced, while exercising an educated level of caution helps but doesn't completely eliminate the exposure. Eric was right; it truly is the ultimate paradox.