Why don't you guys ask StuntCok to chime in on this thread?
He rode it out top to bottom with an airbag in AK last year.
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Why don't you guys ask StuntCok to chime in on this thread?
He rode it out top to bottom with an airbag in AK last year.
I think the key to living a safer life is staying away from this rog dude. He's got a severe trauma experience for every type of incident.
The WARI post actually makes this thread interesting again. I cannot imagine being dragged head first down a mountain by something around your neck. I reviewed the StuntCok video and at 2:28 he talks about this. The video explicity mentions once the airbag deploys he is able to get in a feet first position and smooth out the ride. Like Splat mentioned it would be very interesting to get a personal statement from him or others on how the airbag performed and what they did to insure they came out on top. I do not know who WARI is but it would seem they would of talked to users. They make the statementThan go on to refer to swimming. Is this really the case?Quote:
As all avalanche air bag manufacturers harness their air bags to the user's shoulders and upper back, this indicates to us that the victim is traveling head first and face down during the avalanche.
Somewhat off-topic, but this is a great analogy. Now imagine if cars with airbags weighed twice as much and cost 5 times as much as cars without did. Kinda illustrates the problem for me right now with an airbag. When the weight is negligible and the cost is minor, it will be really nice to have something effective, but that I never, ever intend to use (and would not have used, yet (knock on wood) in my first 20 years of backcountry skiing.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
Also, another thought about the car analogy. In general, for about the past 20 years, as cars have gotten safer and safer, accident rates have remained about the same as the gains in car safety are off-set by higher average speeds. Food for thought.
^^^^ True, but the increase in car speed is not due to the increase in safety. It's due to cars having better handling, more power (on average), and being generally easier to control at speed. Drivers don't drive faster because they're thinking "I have side airbags," they drive faster because cars are more refined and don't feel like they're going fast anymore.
want to hear this..Quote:
Originally Posted by splat
solid analogyQuote:
Originally Posted by dino
I'm not against airbags but If any of my partners ask should I spend $500 on quality avvy instruction or a woffer or emt course vrs. a airbag pack.
knowledge ftw
wtf do you put in an 18l airbag pack?
Good luck surviving the night of havin much rescue gear
but if you feel safer in the side or slack country go for it.
^^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Poop~Ghost
this
and, use all the skills you have to not be in "that" place at "that" time.
yup. and to the avi "pros" like cookie man and others, you can try to say you should do things like go feet 1st not head 1st and so on, but the avalanche is gonna decide for ya n how/what yer ride is gonna entail. skis on? maybe. feet 1st with skis on would be a bloody nightmare imo. i'd like to think that head 1st with tips dragging behind me saved my legs/knees. you really think you can brainstorm ahead as to what the proper thing to do is if you take a ride? sure, but all happens all too fast and probably won't work out as planned and if you don't relax and go with what the beast serves ya, "the right way" could kill ya.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyfromterrace
rog
^^^ stoked to be one of the few on tgr who realize you are just as fuckin clueless IRL as you are on the webz.
continue to believe and pretend you are an expert.
I guess being on the east coast helps you with that fantasy
i'm here to defend the right of rog to be a kook. i would also like to ski more pow tomorrow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swine
4567890123
thanx covert. i think :DQuote:
Originally Posted by covert
i base my opinions from my own experiences and interests (not of others and from text) and share them in a forum. jeeze, shoot me.
rog
Shouldn't you be willing to try an airbag then? You know so you can ignore all the avy experts and form your own opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by icelanticskier
From my ability to wade through the drivel you post you've been in one avalanche and either stuck with your plan or the avalanche decided to let you live depending on which thread it is and who you're trying to convince. Is this correct? It's how you go about sharing your opinions. That you are right because you've survived an avalanche and everyone else is wrong, ignoring that many of the avy experts that you have such disdain for have also used real world experience while coming up with new strategies or game plans.
this is TGR and i like fucking with people. for fun. the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by concretejungle
oh, to answer your q about my avy. yes i/we stuck with our plan, and yes the avy decided to let me live, obviously. my strategies/game plans have most certainly changed following my incident based on what i learned from it. i have no interest in airbags.
rog
Regardless of your theories and ideas about avalanche safety, this statement is ignorant, naive, and stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by icelanticskier
what's so ignorant, naive, and stupid about it? there are many tools to choose from. for me, airbags aren't one of my chosen tools. you dig? beyond your comprehension?Quote:
Originally Posted by Z
rog
I dig it. They might hamper your ability to ride avalanches out head first, right?
My bad, forgot your theory on that...
I doubt the torso is actually dragged by the airbag, even though it may feel that way. Assuming the chunks of slab in a slide are small enough that they're not just sliding on the bed surface, what's probably happening is the bed surface is causing drag on the moving snow, so the snow on the bottom of the slide is moving more slowly than the snow at the top - kind of like a curling wave at the beach (energy in the water on the bottom slows down when it hits the shallow water, while water on top continues at full speed) only with back-to-back waves of snow. The airbag up top is moving faster than the deeper snow surrounding the legs, so the top half is continuously pitched forward. Maybe swimming backwards with your arms is enough to offset the speed differential in the slide, and more or less remain vertical.Quote:
Originally Posted by BFD
hey, worked for me. plus my breast stroke has ALWAYS been stronger than my backstroke;). plus plus my skis were on. wouldn't have wanted them downhill of me in the PARTICULAR situation that i was in. why don't you go try feet 1st and let me know how it works out for ya. airbags not allowed:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Z
i'm so touched that all you dooshnoozles follow along all of my useless drivel!:D
rogizzle
I've been in three slides, all quite small. Even though they were tiny there is NOT A CHANCE I could have ditched my skis. The power involved was huge, I was doing all I could to big into the bed surface (one) or swim (the other two). The forces are immense. You could drop poles or (maybe) shrug out of a pack if the waistbelt was undone and the straps loose.
I'm betting most people here are similar ability to me (pretty darn good but far from pro), if you haven't been caught yet trust me- you are 100% at its mercy, the outcome is pretty much set at the moment you trigger the slide.
I think you would be able to pull the ABS handle 90% of the time, but not always. No way will you get skis off or get an avalung in your mouth.
Patches - that's why I said StuntCok should post in this thread. Or someone should put up the vids he and the others had of his ride. He said he decided to get his avalung in his mouth first, then pulled the airbag. I'm pretty sure I would have gone for the airbag first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patches
Thousand Oaks is right, maybe "dragged" was too strong a word, but the power of avalanche air bags should not be underestimated. If you're attached to one you're going to be on top.
Avalanche air bags are like inner tubes in water. If you've ever gone swimming on an inner tube, just imagine trying to push it completely under water. Granted, an inner tube is probably twice as large as an avy air bag, but the force it takes to push an avalanche air bag under water is immense. Several years ago we did some immersion tests on Lake Tahoe in California in which we tried to sink avy air bags in order to test the radio frequency welds of the urethane coated nylon we manufacture our air bags with. It took hundreds and hundreds of pounds of dead weight just to get them started sinking, and even then they were mostly neutrally buoyant and we could hold them steady at depth without much force. Bottom line, it would take you and about 10 of your biggest friends to manually push an avalanche air bag under water.
An avalanche isn't a rushing river of water, but it is very similar. An avalanche spills over rocks and cliffs and trees on the mountainside much like a river rushes over objects on the river bottom. Waves, rolls, eddies; we see them all when we do our testing, and it's remarkable how much avalanches start to look like rivers when you've seen enough of them. An avalanche air bag in an avalanche reacts to these waves, rolls and eddies in much the same way as it would in a river, and it pretty much always stays on top. As hard as the avalanches try to overcome and engulf and bury the air bags it doesn't happen, and the bags ride out the slides. There's an incredible amount of destructive weight in an avalanche, and it takes the buoyant force provided by the air bag to overcome this lethal force.
As far as placement goes, there is a definite tendency for avalanche air bags to seek the flanks or edges of the avalanches. We usually find our air bags deposited within a few feet of the edge of the stopped avalanche. Rarely do we find our air bags out in the middle of the debris field. If you are searching for a victim who was wearing an avalanche air bag, chances are they are near the edge and not out in the middle.
We also found that the avy air bags remain out on the leading edge of the avalanche if they are hit by a moving slide. If the air bags are placed in the starting zone and start moving at the same time as the avalanche it's a slightly different story, and usually the air bags remain in the forward 1/4 of the avalanche, but not out front.
Disagree. I believe having escape and survival strategies are critical parts of managing exposure. There may come a time in any avalanche when you are 100% at it's mercy but the outcome is not pre-ordained at the moment of failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patches
Just like a loose surfboard gets pushed by the "foam" of a broken wave probably. That aerated water might look like just foam, but it still has a lot of power behind it.Quote:
Originally Posted by WARI avalanche research institute
A 150L airbag submerged in water would displace 150L of water, which weighs 330 lbs. So it would be neutrally buoyant with 330 lbs of weight, though that changes with depth of course. 150L of snow weighs substantially less than 330 lbs, so the amount of lift would be less in snow. But it adds to the existing buoyancy of a human body so there doesn't need to be all that much additional lift to reach positive buoyancy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by covert
QFT, in the 2 large slides I have been caught, both times having a plan and executing that plan were the reason I stayed on top or got out the side.
I was exaggerating, sort of - of course I was fighting as hard as I could to swim and keep my head up and get down and out at a 45 degree angle. But that's all instinctual, and 99% of people are going to do just that, versus, I guess, just going limp. I really can't see getting much done though. It didn't feel like falling down a waterslide, it was like a giant white octopus grabbing all my limbs and trying to pull me under and down. I can't see having "kick off skis" as part of a plan. When you say "executing a plan", what kind of actions do you mean? Its pretty hard to execute a plan once you are knocked off your feet. In my experience anyway. I know covert has a ton more experience than me so I'm listening. Maybe I'm not a good enough skier to manage the part between "starting to get caught" and "knocked off feet". Is that what you mean, or do you mean after you are immersed?
There is also the way experience affects your interpretation of what happened. Covert and I might take the same ride and do the same things, but I would feel I got lucky and he would feel like he helped save himself, because he feels more in his element.
I do feel like its also important that people who haven't been caught don't get the idea that they have a ton of of input into the results of a slide. You see lots of pros trigger surface instabilities in movies and ski right out, which is pretty misleading. I think most skiers my ability or less (which is to say almost everyone I see in the BC) who haven't been caught think they are going to have a lot more control than they actually will.
i think the key is having a plan for when you still have an element of control and a different one for when you are at the mercy of what you have wrought. that's what i teach.
initially focus on escape. when that seems not possible focus on survival strategies like deploying bag or a-lung and protecting ur junk. that's my way. my way may not be suitable for public consumption.
I was on a day trip years ago (10+) and a buddy was in a slide. His experience was completely different from what you are saying. We had 12-16" of fresh powder on a sun crust on Garrets's peak outside of Snowmass. He got two turns in, and the whole area between two ridges went. It was a couple of hundred feet wide at the top and got wider as it slid. It went the whole way down to the bottom of the bowl, probably 1000 fee plus. Once the snow started moving, he lost his speed relative to it and kind of fell to one side. The first thing he did was push on both Fritschi heels and ditched his skis. We skied down the slide path to find him fine at the very tail end of the slide. There was a massive debris field from a slide that was no more than 16" deep. He said his pole straps were pulling his arms under, but other wise it was like a smooth magic carpet ride. I think that was because of the somewhat wet powder and the smooth sliding surface. There is not a single tree or cliff in that bowl.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patches
I often bend my Avalung so the mouthpiece is right in front of my face, Depending on the violence of the slide, I am betting I might be able to get it into my mouth. It really depends on a lot of variables.
Why bet when you can put it in your mouth before you start your run? Ever eat shit in the pow with your Avalung on, like the taste of all the snow packed in there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jethro
Depends on the slope and how I feel conditions are. Often I start the run and roll over the convexity (if there is one) with it in my mouth. Once I am in the gut of whatever bowl or chute I am skiing, I usually spit it out. I do not think I have ever skied more than 500 vert with it in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Oder
Most avi veterans I have encountered in my life all have said the same thing: The more experience I gain, the more I learn that I know nothing when it comes to avalanches.
I've kicked off hundreds of slides over my years. I've gained the highest levels of certification, and have worked bombing routes. The only thing I have left to get over is how scary it has gotten year after year as I have gained more and more experience. Now what's the scariest is when I kick it and it doesn't slide. I hate snow I can't trigger and refuse to ski it.
Airbags, avalungs, whatever. Use it all. Forget about your plan on getting out of it, though. You won't have time, nor will you remember your plan. Your instincts will take over anyway. Plus, you'll panic, freeze, freak out, then enter the white room and be at its mercy. Period.
"I'll put it in my mouth." No you won't.
"I'll take off my skis." No you won't.
The last time I got caught was in a forest here in Japan 3 years ago in early April. I saw the entire forest floor crack around trees and just flush itself down. The only thought running through my head was tips up, hands forward, get home to pregnant wife. Bounce off tree. Bounce off tree. Bounce off tree. The fear that slide induced ended my season. "I fucking quit!"
An avalanche in a forest. WTF? That's not supposed to happen!!! It never is. It's never supposed to happen to you until it does. And then it's some kind of surprise. WTFx2.
You guys ever notice that the majority of people who get caught in slides are pros? You know, the guys who know their shit? In their eye, they went by the book. Followed all the necessary protocol. The random gaper caught is really quite random. Avi safety is all about avoidance, imho. If you get caught, it'll be by a factor you never anticipated-- the unknown.
Here's my slide report from last year.
I would disagree with everyone saying you can't do anything. Everything happens in a split second but time goes slow in that split second (survival instinct perhaps). I.e. I was consciously thinking about putting my avalung in, going to the side, fighting the whole time, etc, etc. I was successful in all regards. With that in mind though I was 100% at the mercy of the slide, fully submerged, and fully convinced I would be buried. I would have been able to pull an airbag as well if I had one at the time. I do now, in big part because of that experience...and I still wear my avalung as well in the backcountry.
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...ncident-Report
agree with this based on my experience. triggered the slide, looked up to see the whole ridge let go above me. didn't try to outrun it to the side as there was a steeper rollover into trees (think trauma) plus i woulda been out of my partners line of sight from up on the ridge. took a deep breathe, let the mass of snow hit me full force, stayed completely calm, never freaked, kept airway clear and fought/swam my way up and out of it once i got a ski off, but didn't fight it till i felt i had a fighting chance. even tho i was under the control of the slide, i never really felt outta control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atrain505
a cool head can go a long way. was kinda tough to make that call to mom that night. when she asked if i would head right back up there to ski, i replied, "of course, i'm headed back up tomorrow". she replied, "that's my boy, be careful."
rog
horseshitQuote:
Originally Posted by gaijin
also horseshitQuote:
Originally Posted by gaijin
initially good advice followed by more claptrap :)Quote:
Originally Posted by gaijin
*edited to merge 2 posts:Quote:
Originally Posted by covert
Covert- you think you can get out of moving snow? Good plan.
You don't think the majority of people who get caught are pros? Maybe I should have said savvy instead. They're the ones riding it. I can guarantee Jim Jack and his crew went by the book.
and 3- Do you really think people get caught by factors they were aware of? No, they got caught by something unanticipated.
Apparently people around here think that guys with nearly 20 years experience in avi conditions with America's highest certs, bombing experience, etc are full of shit. I'll tell you what- you keep up that attitude. If anyone reading this thinks anyone's experiences in moving snow is horseshit, or perhaps you think you know it all, feel free to ski alone.
I hope your arrogance doesn't catch up to you, Covert.
i had a pretty good feeling that the slope that slid on me might go. i went into that 1st turn with my partner aware of this too which is why i entered it and communicated my plan in detail before i started skiing. so why'd i go? well, the snow looked fantastic and i was curious to see how my plan of making that 1st few turns in to a hard left to my island of (not quite as safe as it had been in the past) safety. unfortunately, all went according to plan C that day. fortunately i got out of it. fortunately i can look back at my experience and know where my head was at and know now where i would rather have my head be.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaijin
unfortunately, too many are not so fortunate.:(
rog
Sometimes, yes. But that's an opinion not a plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaijin
I believe the majority of people caught in avalanches are not paid skiing professionals. Maybe I'm wrong. "Savvy" is rather vague. Clearly they vary in level of experience and acceptable risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaijin
It's actually quite common for people to be caught by factors they were aware of but felt they could manage, chose to ignore, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaijin
Now you've lost me.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaijin
Thanks, me too. Have a nice day.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaijin
Sure a lot of dick waving going on in a thread about how dick waving causes trouble. Carry on.
My 2 cents.
Last April I was carried top to bottom in Alaska in a medium sized slide, which I documented here.
What I wrote does cover some of the issues addressed in the thread. I would like to emphasize a few points as well as perhaps add a few as there are opinions in this thread that do not match my one experience.
Firstly, ditching my equipment was not optional. As I said, I don't use pole straps and one ski was ripped off my foot in the first moments. The second ski's lack of release became my most imminent problem. The snow pulled HARD on the ski and only by pulling in my leg with maximum force did it release (by breaking), which immediately relieved the forces that would have likely caused serious injury had they persisted. There is a good account of a pro snowboarder caught in a slide in Japan and, after one foot broke free, the avi ripped apart his pelvis via his attached foot.
While I did insert my avalung before pulling my airbag, this wasn't the order I attempted. After my ski released, I went for my ripcord but, having never practiced with it (it was my second day with the bag) I fumbled it while snow was being pushed down my throat. Having trouble breathing, I decided to insert my avalung first (on which I have much practice), which allowed me to breath. I then made a more concerted effort at the cord, looking down at it and yanking it with both hands and it inflated.
Once inflated, I felt the pack straps pull me up, as if I was being lifted by my armpits and the violent tumbling abated. My experience was that it put my feet downhill, as though I were canyoning, but it could be because I did pull it later in the slide, when things may have been slowing down. I do not know.
I don't know what other people experienced but I did not experience panic. It was very easy for me to consciously decide what to do. Once I knew what was happening, I made the decision to cut right 45 degrees, when I fell I made the decision to bring my knee in and pull against the ski, I made the conscious decision to pull my cord and, when that failed and I was choking, I thought that my avalung may help so I went for it. I then worked the ripcord with all my effort.
I may add more later but it is time for me to go drinking!