How to stop a gunman.....?

Your sitting in class and some random dude just strolls in and shoots the teacher in the head. Then he points two guns at you. Is there really anything you can do at that point?

Some people had an opportunity to act and they certainly did. Some guys blocked the door with a table and lived to tell the story. Others never had a chance to react. As for me, going on the offensive against a crazed man with two semi-automatics unloading 200 rounds of ammunition is not a choice I would ever make. I agree that there's no shame in running; that's probably what I would've done.

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Originally Posted by Voltron

Your sitting in class and some random dude just strolls in and shoots the teacher in the head. Then he points two guns at you. Is there really anything you can do at that point?

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Run for the door or window, and while doing so, pull out your 9mm with 13 rounds and possibly pull of few off while your waiting in line for your classmates to jump out the window.

Hopefully you've been at the shooting range practicing prior to this worst case scenario.

I've been robbed at gunpoint while at work. In that scenario, I would not have had an opportunity to use a gun in my defense. But if I had, I would have killed them both given the opportunity.

Take the trash out.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Do you know what effect a .22 has on your left ventricle, or your aorta? Dead in about 5 seconds.

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Yeah, considering that most victims were shot at least three times execution style, something tells me that rushing the gunner wouldn't have gotten very far...

"how do you disarm someone,"

Cutting the distance faced in most of these classrooms and trying to tactically disarm would not happen succesfully 99.9% of the time, besides the fact that it would have to be a multiple point strip, as he was carying 2 irons.

Multiple entities could perhaps sucessfully rush and disarm, but this would have to be a concerted effort.

I would not see myself trying for a disarm in this scenario.

" how do you deal with the intial shock of the situation"

You either are able to think logically through shock, or you're not... Familiarity with actual combat may enhance this... Training will not.

"how do you ambush someone in a building, how do you attack them"

This is largelly situational. Learning blind spots, dead angles, tactical environmental emplacement... Train and train in every env. you can find... Learn what works where and what does not... IE, Running up stairs, away from an impact weapon is feasible, running down stairs will likely get you killed

"what can be used in a weapon"

Pretty much anything!!! An overhead projector could make a great impact shield... Pens and pencils are fine stabbing implements when needed... A firehose will stop someone alot faster than they think... Broken glass shards can be used as impact weapons... Env... Slam somebody up against an outside corner and see if he gets up? Even rapid light and sound deployments can be effective weapons...

Environmental awareness and ability to improvise are what allows seasoned street fighters with horrible technique to regularily mop the floor with "dojo killers".

"how do you know if you are actually in mortal danger,"

You'll know. Having had numerous encounters with firearms and edged weapons over the years, I can guarantee if you are aware of the situation as it develops, you'll know when the chips are down, PROVIDED you are ALSO aware of conflict escelation.

"How would you recommend the average guy deals with this?"

Realize what your limitations are, what you "expect" to face, worst case scenario, then start stacking odds.

Kubotan stick on the keys... Edged EDC (Every Day Cary), training is MMA or Kali, Eskrema... Any weapon is useless if you don't know how to use it and have the mental capacity to actually use it. If you're not willing to stick six inches of steel up to the hilt in some ashole's chest, don't carry the knife that will likely be used in much the same way against you without reservation from said citizen.

Learn environmentals... Guy comes into classroom, only to get a broom handle to the nose from his weak side blind spot. It's common sense to swing that handle... Knowing how to maximize your chances by incorporation your env. to YOUR advantage has to be studied.

THere's no hard and fast to survivng these types of encounters... Some people, with all the training in the world, will never be able to stick someone or fire a round at them, while others will naturally be great env. fighters whom know escelation progression and will use a weapon at the appropriate time without hesitation, never having stepped in a fighting gym before.

My advise is study, train, and arm youself as your local law allows. Wether that be a Kimber .45, an edged weapon, or a can of mace and a whistle... All are equally useless if you cannot deploy and use them effectively.

The answer of course is: two in the body, one in the head.

In the end, the answer is that there is no way to know what will or will not work. It is a situation with too much chaos to say this one thing will work. And likely in such a situation people's minds are not "in gear" for action.

For example:
Nobody rushed that kid as far as I can tell.

Bomb, gun(s), knives, hostages whatever…I doubt that you could hijack a plane with Americans on board and not get rushed.

Really, this is far too rare an occurance to even spend any time worrying about.

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Originally Posted by haydukelives

a professor barricaded the door with his body, allowing his students to get out the windows. not mentioned in the worthless media.he was shot to death.

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So, ummm...how did you hear about it? It's been in the papers and on TV here.

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Originally Posted by lemon boy

For example:
Nobody rushed that kid as far as I can tell.

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At least one guy did, a professor who had been in the military, I don't have his name handy but it's been in the papers. He died.

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Originally Posted by Andy_B

^^ Well, Highway Star is very dense.

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That was funny.

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Originally Posted by iceman

At least one guy did, a professor who had been in the military, I don't have his name handy but it's been in the papers. He died.

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thanks ice, I'm not really following it.

you know what? This is a very fucked up thread.

you're asking: "How can i be a hero?"

Guess what!!?? You can't. That shit happens like yesterday disappeared. you don't plan it. You only have it occur upon your soul. Get over it you f'king 10 year old.

This forum is seriously starving for something worth eating.

fuck you.

Being large, threatening-looking and extremely slow in thought and deed, I would have been shot.

Usually people fall into a scant few actions during an emergency:

- "deer in the headlights" shock
- crouching and hiding in fear
- immediate flight from danger
- offensive actions

My experience is that very few are mentally on the offensive in the first moments of a life threatening situation. If the events are unusual and unexpected it is even less likely that people will react offensively.

People may fantasize that they would react with guns blazing, ninja stars thrown, dealing the death blow to a perp... most likely you would run or get gunned down where you stood.

Hand to hand combat is difficult and unnatural to those who haven't practiced it or fought others, and there is a serious mental hurdle to be overcome for sane people to kill others.

The best thing you could do is encourage people you know are mentally unstable to seek help, before they go postal.

Which brings us to the conundrum of the day... What to do about Highway Star?

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Originally Posted by gaijin

you know what? This is a very fucked up thread.

you're asking: "How can i be a hero?"

Guess what!!?? You can't. That shit happens like yesterday disappeared. you don't plan it. You only have it occur upon your soul. Get over it you f'king 10 year old.

This forum is seriously starving for something worth eating.

fuck you.

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But how do you really feel? Welcome to the world of Damian Highwaystar Sanders.

Dammit - Bklyn beat me to it. This isn't TV folks - Heroes die first in real life. By the time you've digested that some guy just walked in and killed 4-5 people it's too late to "react." Clearly the implication in the original post by the windowlicker is that 32 people died due to their own cowardice or lack of action. That's shameful.

If you want to be a hero you could go all loco on his shit.

"I'm a crazy motherfucker just like that mad monk Rasputin and even if you shoot me 20 times I will still keep coming. You don't want to fuck with me and I am coming for you now because I am loco! That's right I am loco and you picked the wrong loco motherfucker to fuck with, motherfucker! It's over for you, pussy because I'm loco! And I have a PLETHORA of ways to get inside your head and make you think twice about capping anybody because I am LOCO MOTHERFUCKER!!!"

Either he will freeze up allowing you to disarm him or he will cap you first. If you want to be a hero you gots to take your chances.

he walked into the classroom with everyone in front of him and his back to the door w/ two guns...you don't have a chance. if someone had come in behind him from a different room/hall then possibly. but those people surely had no idea how many gunman were in the building therefore it would have been foolish to go into the classroom where the shooting was coming from...unless you are a trained police/military person i suppose.

the whole thing is just sickening...

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Originally Posted by haydukelives

a professor barricaded the door with his body, allowing his students to get out the windows. not mentioned in the worthless media.he was shot to death.

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You must not read newpapers. Blinded by the spite.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Do you know what effect a .22 has on your left ventricle, or your aorta? Dead in about 5 seconds.

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True , .22 will kill you in certain spots. Lucky or aimed. But the element of surprize and not aimed would work in your favour. Also Engineering text books apart from being expensive are very thick and dense.

A point I didn't bring up before at least one of the guys that left the classroom later committed suicide due to guilt over not doing more.

And and yes if you had a hand gun you would actaully cap his ass like in the movies. Hitting something with a hand gun on the fly is not easy. Think sence from Pulp Fiction. Your not going to hit anything if you don't hit the range often.

The solution is clear. Arm the teachers with AK47s! ;)

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Originally Posted by Roo

Being large, threatening-looking and extremely slow in thought and deed, I would have been shot.

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But he would have used up clip to bring you down so the small people could attack after your gaint frame hits the ground and the dust blinds the fucker.

funny nobody knows his name if it was so well covered. and he was not ex-military. he was a holocaust survivor

Different guy, Jon. Yes, he ALSO barricaded his door (not with his body) and told his students to flee through the window, but so did several other people, including the Lady professor who was killed.

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Originally Posted by jon gaper

funny nobody knows his name if it was so well covered. and he was not ex-military. he was a holocaust survivor

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Two different guys.

[QUOTE=strawjack;1240622]he walked into the classroom with everyone in front of him and his back to the door w/ two guns...you don't have a chance. [QUOTE]

THat scenario actually has much to do with how the door is framed, wether is it recessed in the door sill...

Certain doors provide dead angles (Angles not likelly to be cleared by the assailant) by design.

Standing on his weak side dead angle waiting to feed him an impact weapon could be very effective.

Not saying I would have done it... But again, Environmental awareness, and using that env (A dead end, closed area, which the gunman would have seen as HIS advantage) to tactical advantage can be VERY important in situations such as these.

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Originally Posted by jon gaper

funny nobody knows his name if it was so well covered. and he was not ex-military. he was a holocaust survivor

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I just didn't want to mispell it. But to satisfy you, chief I'll venture Liebrescu or something like that, I think. Holocaust survivor, it was initially rumored he had experience in the Israeli Defense Forces. Amazing life story, tragic he was killed by such a piece of garbage.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Let students in school carry legal concealed weapons, then cap the FUCKER!

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I agree, no sense bringing a knife to a gun fight

I would think Obernhard would have sprayed some senseless babble that would have made the guy freak out and wonder what it means possibly giving someone enough time to disarm him. Moral is that obernhard is the hero here.

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Originally Posted by Damian Sanders

How would you deal with type of situation.......really. How would you recommend the average guy deals with this? Real tips - how do you know if you are actually in mortal danger, what can be used in a weapon, how do you ambush someone in a building, how do you attack them, how do you deal with the intial shock of the situation, how do you disarm someone, and then how to use the gun, etc, etc......?

Thanks.

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Having looked down the wrong end of a gun a few time, I'd say you're dealing with it in the completely wrong way.

You could attack them and try to physically disarm them or shoot them back or try a variety of those John Wayne moves with which we're all so heavily indoctrinated after which your dick will balloon and you'll get the girl and she'll ride you off into the sunset.

What matters is living, nothing else.

The VTech situation was different than the ones I encountered in my days of hitchhiking and train hopping. In my cases, it was a one on one confrontation in which either money or some control issue was at stake.

With that in mind, I always changed the dynamic of the situation by giving them what they wanted and in the case of the sawed off shotgun psycho, letting him know that there was nothing to prove and nothing to gain. And if you have the balls, make jokes. That's what worked for me. Plus, they never got any money off me either.