Exercise and heart rates

Some very good info here.

I train swimming at very intense levels quite often. Our training is determined by baseline tests and heart rate. I'm 51 y/o and can't get over 180 bpm no matter what I try. It's a funny feeling because I feel like I have more to give but just don't have the revs. The kids peg at around 210-220 bpm during high intensity. I'm like an old Harley.. I typically count around 164 bpm doing regular interval training. I can maintain that with minimal rest for quite a while.

One point, and I believe it, is that the idea of better fat burning accomplished at lower aerobic rates is false and is inferior to the fat buring at higher intensity anaerobic levels. The reason being is that high intensity anaerobic training keeps the body at a higher metabolic rate long after your workout vs. a purely aerobic workout. So over the long run high intensity trumps aerobic for fat burning capability.

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Originally Posted by divegirl

Since I'm taking up triathlons again, I've been talking to people. I'll be taking a class from Total Body Fitness in Sacramento next spring, and I've talked to someone who took a class already about the HR thing. She says their mantra is training smart is to train by your heart rate - meaning, you should heed all the advice from others in this thread about your HR zone, etc.

However, my heart rate is totally fucked up. My resting heart rate is an average of 50 bpm. Once I was at the doctor's and she measured my heart rate twice, and both times it was at 47. However when I work out, my heart rate is up to 190 and that's average. My brother has the same problem, and both of us are fairly in shape. So, not everyone can maintain an ideal zone, but it's good to keep track of it. I, too, need to get a HR monitor and use it while I'm working out.....

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How are you measuring pulse? 190 average seems high for a 47 y/o. Your 50 resting/190 maximum means you are very strong.

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Originally Posted by 4matic

One point, and I believe it, is that the idea of better fat burning accomplished at lower aerobic rates is false and is inferior to the fat buring at higher intensity anaerobic levels. The reason being is that high intensity anaerobic training keeps the body at a higher metabolic rate long after your workout vs. a purely aerobic workout. So over the long run high intensity trumps aerobic for fat burning capability.

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I've heard this as well. When I am training at lower heart rates 120-145, it doesn't feel like I'm doing anything, I mean I am sweating but it doesn't feel like I'm working hard at all, no stress. I've read things that say for fat burning you should train at lower BPM, and I have about 15 pounds of fat I should burn off my gut, but it just feels like nothing is happening. I feel good at 160-175. Around 185 it feels uncomfortable, but not to the point of puking. This is measuring using the finger sensors on equipment at the gym.

Thanks for the great info in this thread guys/gals.

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Originally Posted by gramboh

I've heard this as well. When I am training at lower heart rates 120-145, it doesn't feel like I'm doing anything, I mean I am sweating but it doesn't feel like I'm working hard at all, no stress. I've read things that say for fat burning you should train at lower BPM, and I have about 15 pounds of fat I should burn off my gut, but it just feels like nothing is happening. I feel good at 160-175. Around 185 it feels uncomfortable, but not to the point of puking. This is measuring using the finger sensors on equipment at the gym.

Thanks for the great info in this thread guys/gals.

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The theory is that at lower aerobic rates your body has time to draw energy (carbo) from the blood and fat. At high intensity you draw energy from the muscles and liver.

I have the same issue. Based on my age (fucking old), the "85%" is too low. The whole 220 thing is an estimate only, and if your resting heart rate is higher or lower than average, its off. You should use a combination of the estimate and your preceived exertion level. If once you've warmed up and moving, but you can carry on a short conversation w/o too much effort, you are probably w/in the aerobic zone.

The other thing to look for is how quickly your heart rate slows. Even if you are up high, if your rate starts to lower as soon as warmdown begins, you're ok.

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Originally Posted by irul&ublo

The other thing to look for is how quickly your heart rate slows. Even if you are up high, if your rate starts to lower as soon as warmdown begins, you're ok.

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If you are not in decent shape what will also happen is your bpm will initially drop but then head up again and stabilize at a higher than optimum level.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

Is there a better way to focus on stamina in 20 minutes?


I'm definately wheezing when I'm pounding the 165 HR, but I'm not feeling like I'm going to puke. So the 220-age rule is suspect?

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Ok I'm going to try to focus on your specific situation which is tough as I don't know your exercise background or even your age or how much or little you've trained before. Like Bullet I'm self-taught so not a pro.

Read what Bullet said about Anaroebic Threshold. In my example my max HR is 206, my AT is 167 and my resting is 62. I'm using me as an example as I don't know your stats.

If I only had 20 minutes and I was trying to train stamina (and my knees weren't suspect) I would run. I would run 5 minutes as a warmup (110 bpm) - then 10 minutes at 135-145bpm - then 5 minutes as a warmdown (110bpm).

I know it sounds discouraging because 20 minutes is very little time to do anything. You're actually only doing about 10 minutes of stamina work but hey = that's a plan based on your parameters.

I don't know if you have a fitness base. If you're trying to build a base I'm not going to lie to you. It'll be pretty hard to build a base w/o spending time at it.

I'm not sure if you'll see a lot of benefit doing "intervals" without first having a base. Then again, you might have the genetics and some degree of pre-existing fitness so your body can take the shock of doing intervals and doing them properly.

Sidenote - if you don't do intervals properly (ie proper amount of effort over proper amount of time) I personally don't think they're much use. Problem is that if you don't have a certain amount of fitness then you won't be able to take the pain inherent to doing intervals in which case all you'll be doing really is to hurt yourself w/o deriving much more then minimal fitness benefits. So to sum it up, be very careful doing intervals. You can physically hurt yourself.

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Originally Posted by Bullet

Oh, and when holding the hand-rails your work load is decreased anywhere from 15%-30%. Try not holding on and see how much harder it is. That could be a way to get more out of the workout because you recruit more stability muscles for balance purposes.

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Ditto that. To step it up another notch, take your hands off and close your eyes. My HR went up another 10bpm doing the extra work of balancing with my eyes closed. (Took a little adjustment to not feel like I was going to fall off the damn thing, but once I did, it was cool. Plus, way easier to visualize that I'm doing something somewhere more fun than ellipticating at the gym.)

(And bags, we just got back from riding. Porcupine was sweetness.)

(and this is random, but it's insane that I have better wireless broadband coverage at a campsite in Moab than I do in my living room.)

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Originally Posted by 4matic

If you are not in decent shape what will also happen is your bpm will initially drop but then head up again and stabilize at a higher than optimum level.

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What kind of numbers are we talking here.

We rode the Crest the other day and at the top of puke hill I maxed out at 205bpm. As tha name of the hill implies, that's "I'm gonna puke" territory, and as maxed as I think I can get. (That good old.. it will be harder to get started so just keep on pushing for another 100ft before you quit, no matter how bad it sucks.) But when we stopped, my HR was back to 117 within a few minutes of chatting and catching my breath. Which is about my average, walking around doing housework HR. My resting HR is 55.

Now granted, riding a trail on a MTB isn't really "training". But it seems I max out on a climb on every ride. Todays ride was UPS (they had the upper sections closed with a ranger truck parked there to issue tickets, so we rode Kokopelli to LPS to Porcupine). But total of 2:40, avg HR 167, max HR 203, calories 2085. My percieved effort on this ride was about average for a ride.

It seems like for both MTB and skiing, you need both aerobic endurance and anaerobic fitness. (both sustained climbs and couple minute sprints - like sidestepping up something relatively short). My current plan is 4 days a week on the elliptical trainer - 2 days of intervals into the 90% range, and 2 days staying at 70% or below for endurance. 45 min to an hour for each session. Is that ideal or is there a better use of my time at the gym?

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Originally Posted by altagirl

What kind of numbers are we talking here.

We rode the Crest the other day and at the top of puke hill I maxed out at 205bpm. As tha name of the hill implies, that's "I'm gonna puke" territory, and as maxed as I think I can get. (That good old.. it will be harder to get started so just keep on pushing for another 100ft before you quit, no matter how bad it sucks.) But when we stopped, my HR was back to 117 within a few minutes of chatting and catching my breath. Which is about my average, walking around doing housework HR. My resting HR is 55.

Now granted, riding a trail on a MTB isn't really "training". But it seems I max out on a climb on every ride. Todays ride was UPS (they had the upper sections closed with a ranger truck parked there to issue tickets, so we rode Kokopelli to LPS to Porcupine). But total of 2:40, avg HR 167, max HR 203, calories 2085. My percieved effort on this ride was about average for a ride.

It seems like for both MTB and skiing, you need both aerobic endurance and anaerobic fitness. (both sustained climbs and couple minute sprints - like sidestepping up something relatively short). My current plan is 4 days a week on the elliptical trainer - 2 days of intervals into the 90% range, and 2 days staying at 70% or below for endurance. 45 min to an hour for each session. Is that ideal or is there a better use of my time at the gym?

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Your numbers are very good. You are fit.. Most people aren't fit enough to even get near their maximum. The key is when you have "recovered" do you feel good or do you feel like you need more rest; like your heart is still pounding? It takes me much longer to recover now that I'm old and the residual effects are greater. The older you are the more fatigue is cumulative...sucks.

Your plan is excellent and pretty hardcore. I don't care much for eliptical but if you like it that's all that matters. Intervals done correctly are very efficient.

Stay strong!

Good stuff here on an interesting topic.

HRmax is very individual. I tested myself running 6x2min intervals (after a good warmup) up a local hill, trying to start each at a higher HR than the previous effort. This method is described here. At age 47, my measured HRmax is 196 (the HR charts are worthless for me too), HRrest is 44. Lab treadmill tests show my HRthreshold is 182.

Intensity & volume: Based on this, on my hard days I'll try to collect time above 170bpm (~85% of HRmax) biking, hiking, running, skiing, swimming, etc. I'll do 1 - 4 hard days per week depending on season & schedule. As has been mentioned before, you can't go hard every day especially if your hard days are hard enough. On my easy/recovery days I'll aim for 140bpm (~70% of HRmax) & go long for hours when I can.

Some good reading:

Get in the Zone
Improve your Anaerobic Threshold
Volkswagon or Mercedes engine I
Volkswagon or Mercedes engine II
Volkswagon or Mercedes engine III

A favorite workout for me are Tabata intervals, google it for more on the topic. Twenty seconds all out, ten seconds recovery, repeat eight times. Can be done biking, hiking, running, swimming, xc skiing, skinning on skis, weightlifting & in combinations. A very efficient use of exercise time.

For example if I'm pressed for time on a hard workout day I'll warm up, sprint eight times twenty seconds w/ten seconds recovery & cool down = done in 15min. My favorite is to do Tabata sets in uphill trail running.

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Originally Posted by Shredgar

Some good reading:

Get in the Zone
Improve your Anaerobic Threshold
Volkswagon or Mercedes engine I
Volkswagon or Mercedes engine II
Volkswagon or Mercedes engine III
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Thanks for the links. I printed them out for the swim coach. I'm certain we'll use this.

I've been lazy and not really read this thread, but I noticed you were looking for a workout in the 20min bracket that increases endurance. I also noticed Bullet mention intervals. Here's what I've been doing for a few years, first with sprints on the oval, last couple of years on a rowing ergometer. You could do it on the elliptical trainer. A HR monitor helps, but you can sort of do it by estimating intensity. It will take you to the verge (and sometimes beyond) of puking. It works wonders for me. I have a low HR (resting 37, max I struggle to get to 170 @ 33 yrs old) but I do have very quick recovery times. If you want to read more about the science behind it, search for Tabata protocol.

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Originally Posted by Shredgar

A favorite workout for me are Tabata intervals, google it for more on the topic. Twenty seconds all out, ten seconds recovery, repeat eight times. Can be done biking, hiking, running, swimming, xc skiing, skinning on skis, weightlifting & in combinations. A very efficient use of exercise time.

For example if I'm pressed for time on a hard workout day I'll warm up, sprint eight times twenty seconds w/ten seconds recovery & cool down = done in 15min. My favorite is to do Tabata sets in uphill trail running.

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Such a short recovery?!? I'll have to read up on this stuff. Learn something new all the time

I just have a couple of points. While exercise is exercise if your goal is endurance then training over the Anaerobic threshold can actually be worse for endurance then training significantly lower than the AT. Just below AT would be optimal. Your AT will vary with the activity. Riding a bike is non weight bearing and your max heart rate and each zone will tend to be lower. Swimming is even more so as your horizontal body works the heart less and the water pressure tends to lower the beats/Min. Running is higher and cross country skiers have traditionally measured highest as they are both weight bearing and involving more muscle mass in propulsion.

An italian doctor named Conconi came up with a test to plot AT. It involved increasing the effort in a set exercise (step test or increased speed running or increased effort on a bike) and plotting the heart rate. A graph of the heart rate would show a blip where the steady increase flattened when the muscles transitioned the energy source. It was thought to be quite accurate but later proven to only be accurate I think about 3/4 of the time and I believe more reliable on fitter athletes. The only other way to find AT is by measuring blood content or expirations for gases.

I don't agree that the handles make for accurate measures of heart rate. Even a chest strap on a good unit will give flakey readings until enough sweat is produced to improve conductivity. It would be interesting to compare readings from a chest strap to the handles to see how that went. The newer polar straps shouldn't interfere with other monitors nearby (crosstalk) but older equipment might.

Well said L7.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

As pointed out, i should specify the objective: weed. Weight's not a problem. I just want to be able to hike and ski without wheezing.

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That's a tall order given your objective. :fm:

Sound advice in this thread there is. L7, nice stuff.

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Originally Posted by L7

I don't agree that the handles make for accurate measures of heart rate. Even a chest strap on a good unit will give flakey readings until enough sweat is produced to improve conductivity. It would be interesting to compare readings from a chest strap to the handles to see how that went. The newer polar straps shouldn't interfere with other monitors nearby (crosstalk) but older equipment might.

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That's why you should wet the conductor points before you put on the strap. I've always done this and assume that the readings are accurate as they appear to be.

The Suunto straps I've used have unique tranmission frequencis and eliminate picking up other people's rates nearby. Since they dropped Polar in 2001 (I think) it's been so. FYI

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

Such a short recovery?!? I'll have to read up on this stuff. Learn something new all the time

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Yeah, it sounds pretty brutal to me, too. I think you'd be able to sprint well on the first couple then completely fall apart. Maybe that's the objective! :)

Holy shit, I can't believe I posted the same stuff as you just 2 posts after you, Shredgar. :nonono2: I really should've read the thread before posting.

If I had a limited amount of time to train for your objective I would try to incorporate some strength/resistance training. A lot can be done in 20 minutes if you need to keep it short. And going uphill requires a lot of strength.

I have done tons of cardio for triathlons over the years and most of it using target heart rate zones and heart rate monitors. Most of my training is on flat areas with some rolling hills. It always seemed I would blow up in the Triahtlons when I hit a long climb on the bike or run. At least until I started incorporating strength training.

i have a heart rate monitor... Nice to know where you are at when biking and running. But after using it for a while I was able to guess my heart rate by how I was feeling and get pretty close. It is fun to try to get a new Max...

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Originally Posted by powstash

That's a tall order given your objective. :fm:

Sound advice in this thread there is. L7, nice stuff.

That's why you should wet the conductor points before you put on the strap. I've always done this and assume that the readings are accurate as they appear to be.

The Suunto straps I've used have unique tranmission frequencis and eliminate picking up other people's rates nearby. Since they dropped Polar in 2001 (I think) it's been so. FYI

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Yea I always wet the conductor points before putting it on but still find the readings a little in and out until I've got a good sweat on.

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

Such a short recovery?!? I'll have to read up on this stuff. Learn something new all the time

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Shredgar - i read the link. It still sounds horrific. I'll try it for weights/. Just to clarify, have you tried it yourself personally? I always thought with intervals that you're supposed to rest adequately between the high-intensity segments - otherwise you won't be able to do the high-intensity properly. Sorry for the skepticism but it doesn't sound like intervals in the sense of the word I've learned


oooh found this - read it Buster -= http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=165

Tabata method for bikes - elliptical trainer etc. It sounds dangerous on a bike- sounds like I might collapse and have to crawl back home on my lips. Sounds like the article is more directed to strength and partially to cardio but will try it for legs and knees for myself

Weight Training: A study conducted by Dr Tabata in Japan showed that “six to eight very hard twenty second intervals with ten second rest periods” are very effective for increasing both aerobic and anaerobic conditioning. (13) Putting this into practice, an individual would perform a movement that utilizes multiple muscle groups. Movements such as the Squat or Deadlift are a good place to start. Using approximately 50% of your 1RM perform as many repetitions as you can in twenty seconds, rest for 10 seconds and repeat six to eight more times. Be warned, this method was used on elite Japanese speed skaters and was a very painful experience. This method is not only great at fat burning but will teach you how to stay mentally focused while enduring a large amount of pain.

Bike: It’s probably the most boring piece of equipment to use in the gym, but it can be quite effective. If you’re feeling brave, try Dr Tabata’s method (as mentioned above). The experiment Dr Tabata performed used bikes, which gives you a feeling just how tough this method really is

Well, I only have personal experience to add....as I havent studied this too much. THANKS for all the knowlege above though!!!

Fun timing for me to learn, as just yesterday I did a personal experiment and it went well for me. I am more into long events (like 24 hr stuff), than fast events (as I am a clydesdale and cannot compete). That said my normal problem is blowing up....by getting too excited and pushing myself too much (like chasing people on climbs in the death ride :nonono2: ......then laying on the ground trying not to puke).

So, yesterday! I did a road race around lake tahoe, and vowed to keep my heartrate below 160 (just my personal guess based on how I feel....can still talk at that level). I was stoked on how I felt (and am happy with how my legs feel today.....not spent they way they normally are after something big). I kept it between 150-160 for 4:17 of riding (car to car time was 4:27). I really think it kept my body working effeciently without the dips...and I think recovery is going to go well.

A note on the race....the winner (who I work with in Reno) did it in 3:04 (SMOKING).....and lots of fast roadies were under 3:30 mark too.....those guys were definately all working together.

I'm doing Tabatas regularly, mainly running & weightlifting. The first couple repeats aren't that bad, the next few are tough, the last couple are very tough & force me to dig deep. We also did running Tabatas in our local xc ski dryland training program, coached by the guy that wrote the Volkswagon or Mercedes Engine articles.

An eight repeat Tabata running set will give me 2 - 4 minutes with a heart rate above 170bpm, my target for threshold development. I'll alternate running flats & hills.

As for weightlifting, I've been doing Tabata sets in lat pulldowns, dumbell bench presses, upright dumbell rows & balance ab curls (compound multi-joint exercises). Have been doing four x 20 second repeats per exercise, then move to the next, for a total of 16 repeats. Trying to work up to eight of each.

Tabata this