Farewell German Gotamas!

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Originally Posted by Powder Ho

I have a pair.........

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GET OUT IMPOSTER!

maggot v. sniper

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Originally Posted by Alpinist

You said:


You didn't say "I'd say that laying up a "Völkl" ski is about as complicated as plastic molding". So you were talking about the ski industry in general and not of a particular brand in particular.

Nevertheless, it is not just a "basic wood core with the occasional titanal stips/sheets". Check out how a Völkl Sensorwood core is made. Here, this might help: http://www.volkl.com/ski/ski_tech.html

P.S.: There is nothing "ocassional" about titanium. You make it sound like you can buy the stuff at Home Depot...

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Oh, so you want to nitpick now. Fine.

Show me where I said any of this, including plastic molding, was easy. I was speaking in relative terms, and I think that should be fairly obvious. Pressing a ski isn't exactly rocket science. If you take into account the breadth of items that are manufactured, skis are on the low end of the learning curve. And pressing a Volkl isn't exactly as difficult as pressing an Atomic with Beta channels. They use a pretty classic ski design and so it shouldn't be that hard to manufacture. The Chinese made K2s seem to hold up pretty damn well, and they don't appear to be all that different.

It seems to me like you're trying to rationalize an irrational attachment to certain countries. The Chinese currently make a host of very good products. Sure there's a bunch of junk too, but every country puts out it's fair share of garbage. Heck, look at Mercedes today. Not that long ago, their cars were considered bombproof overengineered tanks. Nowadays, you're lucky to keep it in your garage longer than it's in the shop. And somehow I think building a luxury automobile is a bit more difficult than pressing any ski.

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Originally Posted by Arty50

It seems to me like you're trying to rationalize an irrational attachment to certain countries.

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Not really, I love Chinese food.

And I really hate German food.

Rationalize that, Sigmund!

Funny to see a thread lamenting that a ski named Gotama is made in Asia.

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Originally Posted by bklyntrayc

Funny to see a thread lamenting that a ski named Gotama is made in Asia.

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No, it would be really funny when labor cost gets so expensive in China that they start making the skis in INDIA!!!:D

And in due time IT WILL HAPPEN, as it has in the past in Japan, Taiwan, Singapur and all the other originally cheap labor places which now produce super expensive quality products.

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Originally Posted by Alpinist

P.S.: There is nothing "ocassional" about titanium. You make it sound like you can buy the stuff at Home Depot...

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Titanal is an aluminum alloy that contains no titanium. It is purchased by various ski manufactures in sheets. Not that much specializiation required from what I can see.

You may be the original, but I'm the urban version. I grew up on the gritty streets of Buffalo, NY. BTW,your photos are incredible.

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Originally Posted by babel

Titanal is an aluminum alloy that contains no titanium. It is purchased by various ski manufactures in sheets. Not that much specializiation required from what I can see.

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You need to cut it to the ski shape, curve it to the ski profile, bond it to the core/layers, etc. My point was that "building skis is not just molding plastic" as Arty50 said. Just read the posts, man. Other techs involved in making skis, not only titanal. already explained. READ ABOVE. Going to bed.

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Originally Posted by Alpinist

My point was that "building skis is not just molding plastic" as Arty50 said.

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*Sigh*

7890

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Originally Posted by Alpinist

Material expertise is industry specific. If China were the leader in magnesium and titanium manufacturing will still not help them if they don't know how to put that on a ski to work effectively. Last time I've checked, R&D is still done in Europe. Or in the US in the case of K2.

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Good thing someone from Germany or the US is telling them how to do it then. They have some pretty tight quality control standards...

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Originally Posted by Alpinist

You need to cut it to the ski shape, curve it to the ski profile, bond it to the core/layers, etc. My point was that "building skis is not just molding plastic" as Arty50 said. Just read the posts, man. Other techs involved in making skis, not only titanal. already explained. READ ABOVE. Going to bed.

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Yes, go to bed.

Will sombody just hurry up and get ahold of these ugly ass white monstrosities and tell me how much of a difference there is in the ride?;)

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Originally Posted by kidwoo

Will sombody just hurry up and get ahold of these ugly ass white monstrosities and tell me how much of a difference there is in the ride?;)

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*cough* *COUGH* search *cough* function *cough*

Maybe if Volkl had outsourced manufacturing to China 3 years ago, they could have invested enough in R&D to figure out that wooden sidewalls are fucking stupid.

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Originally Posted by babel

Titanal is an aluminum alloy that contains no titanium. It is purchased by various ski manufactures in sheets. Not that much specializiation required from what I can see.

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interesting. Did a bit of research on titanal ......

http://www.hardbooter.com/news/archives/64-Titanal.html

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“Titanal® is a high strength, age hardenable aluminum-wrought-alloy”. Contrary to what many people may believe, Titanal® is not titanium and in fact does not contain any titanium. The chemical composition of Titanal® in weight percent breaks down to approximately 88.5% aluminum, 1.7% copper, 2.5% magnesium, 7% zinc, and 0.1% zirconium. Knowing the chemical composition allows for a comparison of this alloy to other familiar aluminum alloys. "

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I learned somethin new today ..... thanks to TGR:D

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Originally Posted by bagtagley

Maybe if Volkl had outsourced manufacturing to China 3 years ago, they could have invested enough in R&D to figure out that wooden sidewalls are fucking stupid.

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.... but they did look sweet.

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Originally Posted by bagtagley

Maybe if Volkl had outsourced manufacturing to China 3 years ago, they could have invested enough in R&D to figure out that wooden sidewalls are fucking stupid.

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Or, if they hadn't used wooden side walls, perhaps their warranty costs wouldn't have been so high that reducing unit costs substantially really began to make sense.

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Originally Posted by wildstyle

.... but they did look sweet.

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They were pretty cool. Actually when I first thought about buying a powder ski, the 04/05 wooden sidewall Gotamas were a big attraction.

Of course, after researching TGR and reading the myriad of problems posters had with theirs I went for the 05/06 model. Best of both worlds: Still black topsheet but with stronger sidewalls!

Do you remember those long lists of "In a perfect world vs. In a bad world" ?

"In a perfect world, all the engineers would be German, all the policemen would be English, all the cooks would be Italian...in a bad world, all the policemen would be German, all the cooks would be English, all the engineers would be Italian"
Can't remember any Chinese references. Feel free to add your own.

Perhaps it's all about the growing number of skiers in Asia ;)

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Originally Posted by TurxSki

Do you remember those long lists of "In a perfect world vs. In a bad world" ?

"In a perfect world, all the engineers would be German, all the policemen would be English, all the cooks would be Italian...in a bad world, all the policemen would be German, all the cooks would be English, all the engineers would be Italian"
Can't remember any Chinese references. Feel free to add your own.

Perhaps it's all about the growing number of skiers in Asia ;)

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Another version:

In a perfect world, all the policemen would be English, all the cooks would be French, all the lovers would be Italian and everything would be run by the Germans.

In a bad world, all the policemen would be French, all the cooks would be English, all the lovers would be German and everything would be run by the Italians.

China V Germany for ski manufacture

Quality - Splitting hairs

Ethicaly Social and Enviromental

A plant in Germany has to obey strict working hours, provide social benfits and pay decent wages a plant in China does not.

A plant in by Germany is bound the stricktest enviromental rules in the world. A plant in China has none.

Its a conscience thing not price or quality.

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Originally Posted by Idris

China V Germany for ski manufacture

Quality - Splitting hairs

Ethicaly Social and Enviromental

A plant in Germany has to obey strict working hours, provide social benfits and pay decent wages a plant in China does not.

A plant in by Germany is bound the stricktest enviromental rules in the world. A plant in China has none.

Its a conscience thing not price or quality.

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I think this is a very valid point. It certainly can be argued that international competition makes different environmental standards, social achievements and so forth difficult to maintain. However, I don't agree fully with this argument. IMO one of the biggest moral issues in the world right now is the unequal distribution of material wealth between different countries and regions. Also I don't believe in foreign aid and the like to solve these problems. I believe that the only real way of getting undeveloped countries up to the western standards (materially speaking) is to let them have access to compete in our markets. This is exactly what is happening with China right now.

So it is not at all clear to me whether it is more morally defendable to buy a ski from Germany than from China. I tend to think it is better to by skis from China from a moral standpoint.

Getting all political again, sorry:redface: or maybe not so sorry :biggrin:

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Originally Posted by Idris

China V Germany for ski manufacture

Quality - Splitting hairs

Ethicaly Social and Enviromental

A plant in Germany has to obey strict working hours, provide social benfits and pay decent wages a plant in China does not.

A plant in by Germany is bound the stricktest enviromental rules in the world. A plant in China has none.

Its a conscience thing not price or quality.

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I am sure all your clothing is made in Germany, Switzerland, France and the US. Gimme a break, will you????:nonono2:

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Originally Posted by KANUTTEN

I believe that the only real way of getting undeveloped countries up to the western standards (materially speaking) is to let them have access to compete in our markets. This is exactly what is happening with China right now.

So it is not at all clear to me whether it is more morally defendable to buy a ski from Germany than from China. I tend to think it is better to by skis from China from a moral standpoint.

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That would be the case if we were talking of a Chinese ski company selling skis in Europe/US, not of a Euro/US company building skis in China cheaper and selling them at the same price so they can make more money.