SLIDE!!! what to do when the shit hits the fan

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Originally Posted by AltaPowderDaze

--Don't send for help, yet. you need all the available resources you have. if there are multiple searchers one can call for help but remember that a live recovery of a buried victim will be made by those already on scene. an organized search party will most likely recover a body.

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From what I've learned this is the first thing you do. I have no intention to start a discussion or to say what's right or wrong, I just find it curious.

It's true that almost every rescue is made by people at the scene, but what if there's trauma injuries, and you're not competent / equipped enough to deal with them? Say you spend 20 minutes to find your buddy, just to find him badly injured with collapsed airways and what not. The 30 seconds you spend making the phone call (if you got connection of course, and know who to call) might be worth it?

Also people have told me to note the time, otherwise you'll soon loose track of it. This you can do quickly with your cell. Of course this is most secondary to the rescue itself...

Once again, no intention to say whats right or wrong. I'm a total rook, just sharing what I've been told...

Might be worth mentioning; this is what the teach in Norway... don't know how our mountain rescue operates vs the north american likes...

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Originally Posted by tokkson

...Say you spend 20 minutes to find your buddy, just to find him badly injured with collapsed airways and what not. The 30 seconds you spend making the phone call (if you got connection of course, and know who to call) might be worth it?

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And so what if he's NOT injured and you've already triggered the whole EMS system (S&R, 'chopper, ambulance) as happened in AZ last year? If you're in a ski area, it makes sense for Patrol to get the Incident Command System going ASAP. If you're in the backcountry and it's just you and your partners, ABCs are all that matter (getting the snow out of your buried partner's airway).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABC_%28medicine%29
"Airway, breathing, and circulation are vital for life"

Outside of making sure you don't get caught in a slide yourself, this is all you should be thinking.

Multiple burials? Tough call, you're probably going to need help... I still think invoking EMS should be done as a last resort and when you're sure you need it (by all means call when you need it). Backcountry skiing is about being prepared and being self-sufficient.

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Originally Posted by tokkson

From what I've learned this is the first thing you do. I have no intention to start a discussion or to say what's right or wrong, I just find it curious.

It's true that almost every rescue is made by people at the scene, but what if there's trauma injuries, and you're not competent / equipped enough to deal with them? Say you spend 20 minutes to find your buddy, just to find him badly injured with collapsed airways and what not. The 30 seconds you spend making the phone call (if you got connection of course, and know who to call) might be worth it?

Also people have told me to note the time, otherwise you'll soon loose track of it. This you can do quickly with your cell. Of course this is most secondary to the rescue itself...

Once again, no intention to say whats right or wrong. I'm a total rook, just sharing what I've been told...

Might be worth mentioning; this is what the teach in Norway... don't know how our mountain rescue operates vs the north american likes...

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it's completely different out there in terms of response, but the basic principles are the same. over here, the 911 operator will keep you on the phone at all costs, because that's how they are trained. they always hold the witness. if you have a party of five, then that is very doable. if it's just you and the person buried, then you are wasting valuable time. 4 minutes w/o oxygen and the brain dies. there are a lot of variables that go into deciding who can properly exchange O2 & CO2 under the snow. i don't know anyone that can tell you who will have a longer time to live under the snow just by watching a slide happen.

you mentioned airway and i'm glad you did. you referenced trauma but remember that when someone is buried in the snow, if nothing is done, they will eventually pass. they may have snow packed in their throat/lungs or snow packed around their chest that does not allow their lungs to expand. as first responders, airway is always #1 on the list of things that must be functioning to keep you alive.


in the U.S., proximity is key to a live rescue when professional rescue is called in. if you are very close to help, like in a resort or near their boundaries, then it is a possibility. if not, it is most likely a recovery rather than a rescue. in most of europe, there are many volunteers spread out across the mountains that are ready to be picked up by heli at a moments notice. it seems over there that there is a reasonable expectation of professional rescue. i'm sure you could tell me more of why that is. here, you are you partners best chance for rescue and professional rescue may take 20minutes to several hours to arrive. depending on the conditions, it may be after weather conditions become more favorable. either way, suffocation or death by trauma may have already happened.

edit: i see ermine beat me too it.

I see your point.

In general, the "backcountry" where I'm at, seldom is backcountry. At the foot of every mountain there's some kind of population, and mountain rescue of some sort is rather near by (This doesn't go for all of Norway/Scandinavia in any way though). And they ask for your location and then they're on their way, or so I've been told be people involved.

Is the 911 call the only option? And I understand why they are trained the way they are with keeping the caller on line, but isn't there any other procedure for avalanche accidents? Has it been debated?
Just curious.

Sorry, I might be drifting off topic, or sort of.

Great read!

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Originally Posted by AltaPowderDaze

it seems over there that there is a reasonable expectation of professional rescue.

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Well, as you say, volounteer mountain rescue is well spread. Skiing, touring and outdoor life style is a part of the scandinavian soul. Especially in Norway, where most people are born with skis on.

Avalanches are not something that happens to "crazy" skiers in Norway. It's something that happens to people driving to their jobs more or less (ok slight exaggeration). This weekend most of the roads in south west Norway were closed due to avalanche danger as an example. Avalanche control/rescue is necessary to keep a functional society in a way I guess. It's debated in the daily papers to some extend.

I must make it clear though, that you in no way can rely on outside help here. That is not what they teach. Risk assesment/safe travel (1) and partner rescue (2) is main focus.

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Originally Posted by tokkson

Is the 911 call the only option? And I understand why they are trained the way they are with keeping the caller on line, but isn't there any other procedure for avalanche accidents?

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It depends. Take a look at the General Announcement at the bottom of this advisory:
http://utahavalanchecenter.org/advisory/slc

Alta Central will know exactly what to do, but if you have a skiing emergency outside of those areas listed in the advisory--call 911 and in general the Sheriff's posse will come searching for you in the States (after the ABCs). So another reason to check the closest Avalanche Center advisory for the area you intend to ski.

I took a little ride and swam out of it Sunday.
I kicked off a little sluff and didn't ski all the way out of it. Got pushed down the slope and then got knocked over. Both skis came off. I tumbled over at least once but That may have been when I got knocked off my feet. I was just kind of being riding along with it until I realized that the snow was going over my head. Then I started trying to swim up. I was doing a treading water motion. Trying to push the snow down and myself up. I still had my poles and I was trying to keep one of them up. The slide stopped after a little bit and I popped up through maybe 10 inches of snow. I was pretty much at the surface.
I had slid about 50-60 feet down slope, luckily both skis were near me. One 15 feet above me and the other 20 feet below me. The main part of the slide went maybe another 100+ feet past where I had stopped. It was a slow slide and I was not in the middle of it.

My skis were wrecked. I tried to edge into the snow as the sluff started pushing me down the slope. I broke the sidewall of one of the skis on a rock under the snow. This slowed me down and let a lot of the snow go by.

No injuries, just the broken ski and some leaky goggles. I was only scared for a second when I realized that the snow was building up on top of me, then I started "swimming" and was too busy to be scared.