Salomon Rocker2

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Originally Posted by DoWork

As for "Where does it stop" I'm going with a big fat "Nowhere". Sure I still love to watch Cody Townsend and Sammy Carlson rip, but I'll never be like "Wow, I have to have those rockers" No fucking way. I don't blame them for getting paid, but shit man, I'll be damned if Salomon sees another penny of mine. You do what you want, but I speak wth my money ad I urge you to do the same, even if it is inconvenient or unpopular. No, I won't boycott a store that carries Salomon but I do have a close relationship with most shops I do frequent and I have been very vocal about why I will never support them again, as it's also important for them to understand why I feel that bond of trust has been violated/broken. Perhaps they agree, maybe they don't. Either way I think it's important for people to know how Salomon feels about their responsibility to the skiers that support them, and how some people percieve that as a slap in the face as I do.

So in closing, yeah if you're going to start a Salomon related thread, I'm going to at least remind people of what happened. They can figure out where to go from there by themselves, but at least they can have all the info on why I think their money should be spent elsewhere.

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I just don't see how you can have it both ways. It's cool for a pro to get paid to promote their gear but the rest of society is a bunch of loser fan boys? Or that "core" shops can make a buck pushing Salomon products and that is "cool", but we dare not mention anything positive about Salomon?

I'm not discounting what happened nor Salomon's role in the whole thing. The constant negative energy around all things Salomon is just getting old and drags this place down.

Salomon screwed it up and a Mag paid a big price. Buyer beware...period.

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Originally Posted by Bandit Man

I just don't see how you can have it both ways. It's cool for a pro to get paid to promote their gear but the rest of society is a bunch of loser fan boys? Or that "core" shops can make a buck pushing Salomon products and that is "cool", but we dare not mention anything positive about Salomon?

I'm not discounting what happened nor Salomon's role in the whole thing. The constant negative energy around all things Salomon is just getting old and drags this place down.

Salomon screwed it up and a Mag paid a big price. Buyer beware...period.

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Actually it's pretty much "Not throwing the baby out with the bathwater"... No, I don't want to see my local shop go under, but I won't buy Salomon. What, I should stop skiing because Salomon makes skis? C'mon dude.

I'm saying I'm trying not to be super unrealistic. I know Cody and Sammy aren't going to quit tomorrow and I don't expect them to. I'm saying I can't be mad at them specifically- or probably 99% of the hard working people at Salomon either, but I'll tell you what, the few ruin it for the many. Some people REALLY fucked up, and others have made it worse with lies told after the fact. If you think that's ok in the company you choose to purchase skis from, hey man that's your bag and it's a free country. Carry on.

You didn't answer my question, tho. I asked you WHAT WOULD SALOMON HAVE TO DO TO MAKE YOU FEEL LIKE THEY DIDN'T DESERVE YOUR BUSINESS!?!??? Who has to get hurt or die before you'd send a message to them that you wouldn't support them anymore? You? Your wife? your friends? I'm genuinely interested to hear what it would take for you, because this shit is pretty fkn bad, dude.

You did have one valid point, though... Buyer beware- EXACTLY, but I'm going to make DAMN SURE that everyone knows exactly why they should beware, because a bunch of people apparently don't get it, or haven't heard. If you're still convinced after you read about what happened that Salomon is a company you can stand behind 110%, then carry on.

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Originally Posted by Bandit Man

Dalton's constant excruciating pain and inability to walk or possibly ski ever is just getting old and drags this place down.

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Yeah, you're right. Poor us and poor Salomon, all these meanies just out to be mean. :nonono2:

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Originally Posted by DoWork

Yeah, you're right. Poor us and poor Salomon, all these meanies just out to be mean. :nonono2:

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Thanks for helping me make my point.

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Originally Posted by Bandit Man

Thanks for helping me make my point.

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OR you could just NOT answer my question again.

WHAT WOULD IT TAKE DUDE???

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Originally Posted by DoWork

I'm saying I'm trying not to be super unrealistic. I know Cody and Sammy aren't going to quit tomorrow and I don't expect them to. I'm saying I can't be mad at them specifically- or probably 99% of the hard working people at Salomon either, but I'll tell you what, the few ruin it for the many.

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So that's why you're acting like an aggressive asshole?
To show that you can ruin this forum for the rest of us and prove your point?

Please be a little more intelligent with your salomon-rage.

Oh, by the way, is it ok to buy Black Diamond stuff again? They did, after all, almost kill some guy in the 80's by designing a climbing harness that could be used in a dangerous way...

I think that's the incident that made them have that disclaimer on all of their stuff about; "climbing/skiing/etc is inherently dangerous...."

If anyone persons posts are ruining this community for you
Perhaps this is not the place for you
or use the ignore button
judging from solomon free skiers "product update post"
I don't think they are getting the message
and if do work or anyone else feels the need to resend the message.
I don't see how that's gonna hurt TC

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Originally Posted by skifishbum

If anyone persons posts are ruining this community for you
Perhaps this is not the place for you
or use the ignore button
judging from solomon free skiers "product update post"
I don't think they are getting the message
and if do work or anyone else feels the need to resend the message.
I don't see how that's gonna hurt TC

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word. :yourock:

Okay so, I definitely think it's wrong that Salomon would put a product that could endanger people's lives without testing it, that goes without saying. I completely feel for TC. I can't imagine how hard he must have it right now.

First off, I think all of you are too quick in writing off Salomon. Let's not forget that they have given us (the skiing community) some pretty sweet products over the years. They have been on the forefront of freeski, freestyle, and race for the past 30 years. They have churned out some killer skis and bindings. Skis and bindings that the majority of us have put our lives at the mercy of.

Having said that, shame on us for assuming that a company that has never ventured into AT in the past 10 years, could magically come up with the most bomber AT boot ever. Let's not forget, Scarpa, Garmont, and Dynafit have been trying to come up with a bomber AT (dynafit compatible boot) for years. It is completely naive to believe that a new comer to the AT market can do it in just one year (and Black Diamond doesn't count because they have been involved in the AT market for years, indirectly, of course).

As for this thread: There still are many of us that are interested in Salomon's products. We are not jumping to conclusions over something that happened with a poorly executed, and obviously untested product. I've seen scores of broken bones and injuries from Atomic bindings recalled in the past 2 years (and we're talking 10 years worth of bindings). I don't see anyone throwing a hissy fit over those. Maybe if it was your mother that got hurt, there would have been a "Boycott Atomic" thread. Regardless, we feel for TC, and we hope the best for him, but please stop cunting up this thread.

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Originally Posted by skifishbum

If anyone persons posts are ruining this community for you
Perhaps this is not the place for you
or use the ignore button
judging from solomon free skiers "product update post"
I don't think they are getting the message
and if do work or anyone else feels the need to resend the message.
I don't see how that's gonna hurt TC

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Well said.

the only way to make salomon realize that we know they fucked up is to stop buying their shit. this thread is supposed to get people stoked on a new salomon ski, possibly leading to people purchasing them. nobody around here should be purchasing any new salomon stuff. if we keep buying salomon, its just business as usual. they have to know that we know they fucked up and that they cant just sweep it under the rug and we'll forget about it.
so until everyone gets the message, i would say every salomon thread will be "cunted".

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Originally Posted by dynodonkeyaltabird

the only way to make salomon realize that we know they fucked up is to stop buying their shit. this thread is supposed to get people stoked on a new salomon ski, possibly leading to people purchasing them. nobody around here should be purchasing any new salomon stuff. if we keep buying salomon, its just business as usual. they have to know that we know they fucked up and that they cant just sweep it under the rug and we'll forget about it.
so until everyone gets the message, i would say every salomon thread will be "cunted".

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You have a very good point. But, our outrage with Salomon needs to be a lot more focused than random ramblings in every Salomon related thread. That is the only way that they will get the message. However, in the spirit of TGR, cunt away!

The money the dude is getting from Salomon (which I hear from you guys isnt much, I dont know) is from their sales. We stop buying products, they go out of business, noone gets paid.

To think that out of 1000's of products on the market, one isnt going to hurt someone is nieve. Margin of error dude. I know it sucks that you guys know him, or post on the same internet forum as him. Its a shitty situation the whole way around. But the point is that this sport is dangerous. Chances are you wouldnt get a life altering injury from a bad knitting related product. Skiing is more dangerous.

You guys are making it out like salomon is wanting to keep making faulty products that hurt people.

we stop buying products, they realize they need to do something to fix this problem and make things right for tc. obviously salomon is not going to go out of business.:nonono2:

salomon's not going out of business because of a little boycott. the whole amer sports corporation's way to big for that. there's a reason we aren't up in arms over the atomic thing: the bindings sucked in the first place, everyone knew that, so we didn't use them. an AT product hits a lot closer to home on this forum than some POS race binding that no one ever puts on a pair of decent skis.

Nobody at Sally wants their company to fuck over TC, not pay him, whatever. They work within company policy, or they lose their jobs, and then they're unemployed and TC isn't paid. Company policy is there to make sure that only people who really deserve it get paid, or every Joe who takes a crash on Sally equipment sues them and gets paid because there is precedent. Hopefully they (the company) can realize its error and give TC the help he deserves.

And no, obviously Salomon isn't trying to make shitty products that kill people. They fucked up. So did BD when they released the Factor 2 years ago and the walk modes disintegrated when you looked at them wrong. In a particular situation, that could have royally fucked someone too. Luckily, as far as I know, it didn't. Yet people still go nuts for BD products here.

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Originally Posted by ectreeskier11

there's a reason we aren't up in arms over the atomic thing: the bindings sucked in the first place, everyone knew that, so we didn't use them. an AT product hits a lot closer to home on this forum than some POS race binding that no one ever puts on a pair of decent skis.

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I think you would be shocked at the number of world cup/noram racers on the metal version of that same exact binding.

BD didn't make a dangerous harness. They were sued because some nitwit forgot to double their harness back. Now we all have to endure the scourge of two-piece buckles. BD was also sued for causing a woman to lose her feet because she got frostbite on an 8000m peak in her BD boots.

Both of those were due to customer stupidity. The Quest failure is shit engineering (look at the pictures) followed by denial and blame-laying.

In the last 10 years salomon hasn't innovated ANYTHING except for marketing. Oh, and maybe superbadass x-wing crosspieces and 3-D ski top sheets.

I am not a BD fan (most of their stuff is second-tier these days), but they don't deserve to be lumped in with the lying incompetent fucks at Salomon.

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Originally Posted by TCK

....shame on us for assuming that a company that has never ventured into AT in the past 10 years, could magically come up with the most bomber AT boot ever. Let's not forget, Scarpa, Garmont, and Dynafit have been trying to come up with a bomber AT (dynafit compatible boot) for years. It is completely naive to believe that a new comer to the AT market can do it in just one year (and Black Diamond doesn't count because they have been involved in the AT market for years, indirectly, of course).

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Umm...I don't think the issue was whether the boot was "bomber" enough. It wasn't remotely adequate. Not like they made it strong, but should've made it stronger. Not even a little. They cheaped out, on purpose, period. Your contention that this is just a "learning curve" issue is what's naive here and, frankly, silly.

Besides, nothing about the Quest is particularly revolutionary from a design perspective. Walk modes and Dynafit compatible interfaces have been around for years. So the notion that Salomon was trying a groundbreaking new design and thus deserves some leeway for this kind of flaw is just as silly.

I think DoWork is absolutely appropriate for raising this issue in any discussion of Salomon products. That's the point of a protest. So sorry if you find it inconvenient, that must be terrible for you.

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Originally Posted by Patches

The Quest failure is shit engineering (look at the pictures)

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I will say that I was pretty stunned to see Lou's analysis. I think that his diagnosis -- poorly placed weight-reduction holes and too-thin material -- seems spot on.

But that seems a little different than this:

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Originally Posted by weasel1

They cheaped out, on purpose, period.

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I doubt that what they did saved any significant money over doing it right. After all, unless Dynafit has a separate patent on the current boot piece, they could have just cloned the Dynafit piece. It seems like they were going for additional weight reduction over what they'd get with Dynafit. Problem is, they don't appear to have tested adequately to determine whether they had hit the tipping point.

Cheaped out on R&D on the insert piece, material testing and analysis, licensing fees, you pick it...

Fair enough, it's possible it was gross oversight, but after notice of a failure to leave them in place and not re-test, that is cheaping out, on purpose in my book.

Let's get back to the "ROCKER 2"

Do anyone know anything new?

Wait, wait, can't we start ranting about Toyota now?

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Originally Posted by TCK

First off, I think all of you are too quick in writing off Salomon. Let's not forget that they have given us (the skiing community) some pretty sweet products over the years. They have been on the forefront of freeski, freestyle, and race for the past 30 years. They have churned out some killer skis and bindings. Skis and bindings that the majority of us have put our lives at the mercy of.

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I'm really not the knee-jerk dbag you seem to think I think I am. People make mistakes but its how you deal with those mistakes that makes you what you are. Salomon apparently feels that bullshitting us is the way to go and I don't appreciate it one bit, as I feel at the very least they owe us some honesty at this point.

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Having said that, shame on us for assuming that a company that has never ventured into AT in the past 10 years, could magically come up with the most bomber AT boot ever. Let's not forget, Scarpa, Garmont, and Dynafit have been trying to come up with a bomber AT (dynafit compatible boot) for years. It is completely naive to believe that a new comer to the AT market can do it in just one year (and Black Diamond doesn't count because they have been involved in the AT market for years, indirectly, of course).

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See, this sounds completely ridiculous to me. There are perfectly functioning examples of correct ways to engineer and reinforce the Low Tech Inserts in many companies just as you've listed. No other boot company offering these low tech interfaces has had a problem engineering and testing a similar product to ensure its safety- especially a new one- before releasing it to the public. It's perfectly feasible that they could have come out with a super burl boot as they clearly had the resources to make it happen, they just got so caught up in slapping features on it that they never bothered to make it safe.

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As for this thread: There still are many of us that are interested in Salomon's products. We are not jumping to conclusions over something that happened with a poorly executed, and obviously untested product. I've seen scores of broken bones and injuries from Atomic bindings recalled in the past 2 years (and we're talking 10 years worth of bindings). I don't see anyone throwing a hissy fit over those. Maybe if it was your mother that got hurt, there would have been a "Boycott Atomic" thread. Regardless, we feel for TC, and we hope the best for him, but please stop cunting up this thread.

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While I understand your right to your opinion, I think you're missing some key facts. The boots were NOT UNTESTED. They WERE tested and BROKE the same way TC's did... They were released anyways. Please read up, I am more than happy to discuss viewpoints on specific issues but you don't seem to know the first thing about what happened other than TC got hurt and you seem to be pretty damn smart.

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Originally Posted by dynodonkeyaltabird

the only way to make salomon realize that we know they fucked up is to stop buying their shit... nobody around here should be purchasing any new salomon stuff. if we keep buying salomon, its just business as usual.

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QFT.

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Originally Posted by TCK

You have a very good point. But, our outrage with Salomon needs to be a lot more focused than random ramblings in every Salomon related thread. That is the only way that they will get the message. However, in the spirit of TGR, cunt away!

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Well, this website gets a lot of hits from people searching for info on new skis and equipment. I just want those people to be aware of the actions of the company they are considering supporting, so check out the thread on the insert failure. There are some very interesting pieces of information that are given throughout it that I feel any prospective Salomon customer should know.

[ame="http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191256"]Saloman Quest Tech inserts failure thread - Teton Gravity Research Forums[/ame]

Edit: I'm done and carry on with your previously scheduled ski stoke if you're still interested.

Solomon clearly screwed up. The spin control that we are seeing in the aftermath is basically the legal department of a big assed corporation getting involved and attempting to minimize the company's exposure. It sucks, but that is regrettably the way it works in just about every industry.

Unfortunately TC paid a terrible price and is likely going to have a tough legal battle. Generally the easiest path in these situation is a quiet settlement where Salomon doesn't publicly accept responsibility and hopefully TC gets some decent dollars so that he can get on with his life as best he can (speculation on my part). Obviously no amount of money is going to get back what he has lost. Then again TC may feel that it is important to do battle and have Salomon publicly admit their negligence/culpability. That is respectfully his choice.

Lesson for me is not to take anything these companies say at face value and not to use a first year product - especially from a company with no experience/expertise in the space. This is in no way a dig at TC just an observation of how what I have learned has effected me - and hopefully others.

It is certainly fair and right for folks on this board to call attention to what happened so that those who are looking at Salomon gear can have all the data to make the best and most informed decisions for themselves. Having said that, it is equally fair for folks to be able to actually have a discussion about Salomon equipment without every thread being hijacked. If the latter happens, people will just go elsewhere and one of the most important points of drawing attention to the situation will have been lost