Trucks.

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Originally Posted by frorider

Hopeless Sinner—actually the mpg difference with diesel is significant. IME for same vehicle and payload the diesel gets 30% better mpg in mixed driving. DEF over the last 7 yrs has cost me less than 0.2 cents a mile, ie it’s irrelevant. I’m assuming anyone with a triple digit IQ buys DEF from a pump not a bottle at auto zone.

For my mostly CA/NV/OR driving, diesel was generally cheaper over the last 7 yrs particularly in summer. Sometimes a full dollar cheaper, more typically 50 cents. Ukraine war changed that but the cost last 2 yrs has been similar to RUG.

I recognize that there are regions where diesel is often more expensive that gas, I’m just pointing out that sweeping generalizations need to be taken with a grain of salt.

For a while I kept a spreadsheet on this stuff, back when I was driving more. Pencilled out to approx $10,000 savings cumulatively for me for my rig. The DEF/ DPF / EGR system on my Ford has another 76k miles under warranty, about 8 yrs from now, but if hypothetically I’m throwing 5 grand in repairs at a 17 yr old rig down the road I’m still coming out way ahead.

YMMV.

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My advice is strictly for WRG and what I presume his uses are and what I've gleaned about his life over the few years I've been on TGR.

Right now I own a diesel van which i've put 25k miles on from traveling ID/NV/CA and OR. I've never once paid less for diesel than gas was at the same station in the last 3 years. My new truck is a diesel to eke out a few more miles of range in the empty places I like to hang out, specifically NV so I do recognize the mpg advantage, as to 30% better mpg - I hope so. I buy def from the pump as well, but my IQ is more in the range of the speed limit.

In the short run WRG would need to come up w $10K to buy a diesel so a $10k savings over a number of miles and years ahead doesn't make sense to me for him. He needs a tractor- those aren't cheap, and he's got a new 4 acre estate to get organized so cash in the pocket (or a lower truck payment) is king, imho, for him. He has a job where he only eats what he kills so that's another factor.


A 2024 Chevy 2500 Custom gasser has an MSRP of $56,500. I figure that's gonna be able to be purchased at $54,000 or perhaps less. Rumors have it that a dealer in CDA is giving much more off than $2500.

Whatever you save in mpg you are going to lose in increased maintenance.

I mean just look at this cat:

Attachment 488466

Those go for over 2k used on ebay alone, let alone new, nevermind all the other systems. Then you have basics like ball joints and front end rebuilds that run you 5 grand plus.

I would go gas if you are only towing a handful of times a year. Not sure how much you intend to use the camper but I can't see it being enough to justify.

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Originally Posted by El Chupacabra

I personally would not buy any modern diesel unless I absolutely needed the towing capability - and needed to use it very often, if not daily. It's not just operating costs or even up front purchase cost that scares me away - - it's the complexity and frequency of very expensive part failures.

If you just "want" a diesel, you don't need a diesel.

On truck camper usage: note that diesel engines weigh a lot more than the gas option in a pickup, and that eats into payload. It's possible to get a Ram Cummins 2500 4WD truck that has lower payload than my Honda Ridgeline.

On crew cab long beds: consider turn radius if you're looking at these. I didn't pay attention to that, and bought a 4WD F350 crew cab with an 8' bed for carrying a truck camper. It was horrible to park or even maneuver when camping. I assume some of that was due to the wheelbase, some to the solid front axle (so pay attention if considering Ram), and it may be better on the GM trucks with IFS.

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As far as repairs I have my fingers crossed and I agree w the sentiment.

The trucks w diesel engines get a higher GVWR so the diesel doesn't eat into payload. My 1T diesel moderately equipped has a payload of 4121lbs. The disadvantage of the weight comes into play w off roading though and I think that's a very significant disadvantage of the diesel.

A sprinter is 20' and a Crew cab, w 8' bed is 22'. Chevy's short bed is 6' 10" so not really that big a deal. I'd get the long bed, and cut down to a double cab or a regular cab before I gave up the 8' bed though if maneuverability was a big concern.

Two other considerations:
- Persistently cold climates are easier with gas. Less warmup time, no plugins, etc.
- Expected life of the truck. Commercial outfits deep in the rust belt often go gas because the truck is not around long enough to realize substantive benefit.

I like diesels but don't like dailying them.

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Originally Posted by The Reverend Floater

Buddy just got a Ford 250 Godzilla and it's really nice. If I was going the 3/4 gasser, that's what I'd do.

That said, for the reasons listed above, I think diesels pay themselves off and then some via retail.

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What did he pay for it?

I can't emphasize this enough on the turn radius: don't make assumptions based on the overall length alone.

My old truck was an extended cab GMC Sierra 2500 4WD from 2000, with an 8' bed. Turn radius was manageable - I could park between other vehicles in a parking lot, I could pull out of a crowded ski area lot. The Ford F30 crew cab was only a little longer overall, being a crew cab vs extended, but the turn radius made it impossible to park between other vehicles that were already parked. Trying to place a trailer became many multi point turns back and forth.

I now have a slightly newer and slightly shorter version of the old GMC for camper use, and it's as maneuverable as any half ton in parking and camper positioning.

I really can't stress this enough. Test drive one of these if at all possible, before buying.

Also, re pricing: if WRG wants a Ford, you used to be able to get invoice pricing on orders, easily, by joining the Mustang Club. I did that for my truck order during COVID, when inventory didn't exist, and pricing was nuts everywhere. I don't know how it is today - maybe you can just go through Costco or easily find sub-invoice pricing like pre-COVID times.

My totaled 2021 Carhart 2500 diesel with 61k miles was valued at a $63k loss. I paid $77k for it. That is $.22.9 per mile over a roughly 3-year period.

Both of my trucks were crew cab with short beds. The '24 has a slightly better turning radius than the '21, but both suck. Always looking to back them in because pulling them in never seems to work without two or three attempts to straighten them up.

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Originally Posted by El Chupacabra

I personally would not buy any modern diesel unless I absolutely needed the towing capability - and needed to use it very often, if not daily. It's not just operating costs or even up front purchase cost that scares me away - - it's the complexity and frequency of very expensive part failures.

If you just "want" a diesel, you don't need a diesel.

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This ^^

I bought 2 diesel VW golfs and drove them for work did the depreciation/ write down kept careful track of all costs to claim on my taxes It was not hard to compare to a small car burning RUG

So in 2001 & 2002 D was consistently an average of 12cents a liter cheaper in Northern BC than RUG and I did the cocktail napkin math on that basis which told me it would make financial sense but in practise not by much when compared to running to say a non-diesel Golf or Honda Civic

If RUG was the same as D it would not be cheaper and looking at fuel prices now D is usually > RUG

Diesel is roughy $0.50 more expensive than RUG here at the moment. I haven't tracked it thought to see if that's the norm or not.

The upfront savings on a gasser vs a diesel would go towards a newer lightweight camper and the tractor. I have a barn to store the camper covered so spending 30 minutes to put it in the bed wouldn't be a huge deal. In reality I use my GFC 8-10 times per year. With an actual hardsided camper I think we would use it a bit more in the winter at the ski hill.

i was a road warrior with no other needs but to save money while sitting in a car I didnt mind driving, if you need the ability to haul that adds another parameter to the equation which we didnt have

so there were 8 other IBM techs doing the same gig as I driving huge distaances in remote BC collecting expenses on a sliding scale and they all ended up running TDi's cuz it was the cheapest vehical to operate

But at the time D was 50 cents a liter cheaper an as RUG and D started to cost the same there was no savings and i probably wouldn't have bought another TDi



Before Revenue Canada got wise to us and cracked down on regular drivers one of the guys was drivivng a TDi in the west Kootenys doing HUGE kms and he made enough money on expenses to pay for the VW AND buy a new Harley dresserwhich was i think 12K at the time

I'm not a truck guy, but Chup's turning radius thing is on point. When my kiddo was born I needed to replace my regular cab truck but I still needed/wanted a 6' bed, so I bought a Nissan Frontier 4 door "long bed", and ignored the online reviews that said the turning radius sucked. While no doubt it was better than a quad cab long bed full size truck, holy crap did that thing suck when parking. Such that moving to a full size SUV (Sequoia) was like moving to a sports car.

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Originally Posted by Danno

I'm not a truck guy, but Chup's turning radius thing is on point. When my kiddo was born I needed to replace my regular cab truck but I still needed/wanted a 6' bed, so I bought a Nissan Frontier 4 door "long bed", and ignored the online reviews that said the turning radius sucked. While no doubt it was better than a quad cab long bed full size truck, holy crap did that thing suck when parking. Such that moving to a full size SUV (Sequoia) was like moving to a sports car.

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When I bought my F-150, I did a fair bit of research beforehand and my must check list for test driving was:
- 3.5 EB vs 5.0 comparison
- Supercab 6.5' vs crew 6.5' vs super 8' comparison

The wheelbase between those three only varies about 12" per, but it was certainly noticeable. I think some of the 3/4 and full ton varieties may actually beat my truck on turning radius (157" wheelbase 6.5' super crew).

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Originally Posted by anotherVTskibum

I think some of the 3/4 and full ton varieties may actually beat my truck on turning radius (157" wheelbase 6.5' super crew).

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My old boss had a F450 crew cab long box dually that he used for pulling a giant gooseneck horse trailer with living quarters. He said it had a better turning radius than his F150 crew cab short bed that was his DD.

The medium duty F450/550 and Ram 4500/5500 have wider front axles to do just that.

As someone who suffered from cold weather diesel woes for 20 years, I can tell you that's not really a thing anymore. Modern trucks aren't 7.3L strokers.

I left my Superduty unplugged in the Sawtooth Valley for two days, with nighttime temps hitting -15f. The second morning it was -5 when I started it and it turned right over.



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Originally Posted by frorider

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FFS, those second shift welders really suck. I used to deal with this type of issue with a trailer mfg. out of Mexico. You would get a rash of garbage welds on the frames. We sent an inspector in and day shift everything look good. Inspector goes home. Next morning, shows up and inspects the 2nd shift production and sends them all back through for re-welds.

But who knows what's going on at the Toyota truck factory. Someone asleep at QA.

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Originally Posted by Mazderati

Two other considerations:
- Persistently cold climates are easier with gas. Less warmup time, no plugins, etc.
- Expected life of the truck. Commercial outfits deep in the rust belt often go gas because the truck is not around long enough to realize substantive benefit.

I like diesels but don't like dailying them.

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Yeah I was going to add that my DEF diesel gets 95% of its miles on the hiway. No way would I want it as my daily driver for grocery runs etc.

Very flat torque curve. In a month of driving the number of times it gets above 2000 rpm you could count on your left hand. That’s the reason the engine will easily get to 300k. It’s just loafing along, with a low pressure turbo.

When I’ve talked to fleet mgrs about trucks and vans, they seem to care as deeply about transmission reliability as they do about engines.

Can we make trucks normal size again?
I grew up in truck country, NC & TN
My grandpa & uncles were farmers in IA and all had trucks and an Oldsmobuick for taking family to town/church. They were working farm trucks, normal sized.
Loads of buddies in HS in UT had trucks
Normal sized.
Now I live in a place where you don't need a truck unless you are pulling a horse trailer to your daughter's equestrian events, but have to do a five point turn to get out of half the parking lots around here as Brett and Chet finance have to have their 18 ft quad cab xtendo bed land yachts parked around me.

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Originally Posted by Woodsy

Can we make trucks normal size again?
I grew up in truck country, NC & TN
My grandpa & uncles were farmers in IA and all had trucks and an Oldsmobuick for taking family to town/church. They were working farm trucks, normal sized.
Loads of buddies in HS in UT had trucks
Normal sized.
Now I live in a place where you don't need a truck unless you are pulling a horse trailer to your daughter's equestrian events, but have to do a five point turn to get out of half the parking lots around here as Brett and Chet finance have to have their 18 ft quad cab xtendo bed land yachts parked around me.

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It was also a completely different time when cars and trucks were extremely affordable. Yes, accounting for inflation.

My GF works from home most of the time so I can use her car a lot. I will plan to get some kind of sedan too at some point so that I can leave the truck for truck stuff.

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I own six vehicles and my only truck now has a camper on it. I can tell you that not having a truck is killing me.

I am thinking of getting rid of my work vans and buying a 3/4 ton work truck. Holy shit! $50-60k for a work truck these days!

Ok I’m sure this has been covered but not finding it in a search. My kid is buying a Tacoma. Looking for a 2020-2022. He’s stretching his budget pretty hard, which is normal for everyone of course.

He’s trying to decide if he needs should get the TRD Off-road or an SR5. Off road is about 3-4K more. He mtn bikes, skis a ton, will drive it places like White Rim etc, but he’s not an off roader as a primary activity. The off road stuff is just to get to the other activities.

Any Taco owners able to give some advice on this one? TRD a must or not really?

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Originally Posted by EWG

Ok I’m sure this has been covered but not finding it in a search. My kid is buying a Tacoma. Looking for a 2020-2022. He’s stretching his budget pretty hard, which is normal for everyone of course.

He’s trying to decide if he needs should get the TRD Off-road or an SR5. Off road is about 3-4K more. He mtn bikes, skis a ton, will drive it places like White Rim etc, but he’s not an off roader as a primary activity. The off road stuff is just to get to the other activities.

Any Taco owners able to give some advice on this one? TRD a must or not really?

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I don't think so, I don't go off road, I have a low milage 2019 SR5, so while the TRD looked purty I just bought the stripped SR5 ( not really ) with 4dr/ longer bed/ 4x4, I put a leer cap on it I have a set of Haks on steel rims for winter, I don't put much more than skis or a bike in the bed

If yer buying used its whatever comes along, SR5 should come with aluminium wheels part of a TRD package might be an annoyingly loud muffler which i ran into doing a raft shuttle so I would look out for that

For me the only real upgrade is the rear locker. I know some people like crawl control and whatever electronic "assistance" feature they have but I hate them. If the TRD package is gonna cost 3 to 4k more I'd go with the sr5 or whatever. You can also price out a rear locker compared to that difference if you're going enough places that need it. I do like off roading though because it's fun and it gets me to sweet fishing camping spots.

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Originally Posted by lifelinksplit

For me the only real upgrade is the rear locker. I know some people like crawl control and whatever electronic "assistance" feature they have but I hate them. If the TRD package is gonna cost 3 to 4k more I'd go with the sr5 or whatever. You can also price out a rear locker compared to that difference if you're going enough places that need it. I do like off roading though because it's fun and it gets me to sweet fishing camping spots.

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Word.

Peeps have no idea how much difference a locker makes. Ford started putting them on their trucks and I can't tell you how many times it's saved my ass.

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You can toss an elocker in a taco for pretty cheap.