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This is pretty right on. We have no lines of communication to talk to In syria, we have lost our ability broker a deal, and our handling of the N Korea crisis has left us looking like fools. Action should have been taken against Kim Jong Il, our detterence is a joke. We threaten with no ramifications.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrw
They were in on the raid from the beginning. The Israeli jets refueled in Iran after bombing Osirak.Quote:
Originally Posted by skideeppow
We expected China to step up to the plate - China was smart enough to realize that the US had much more to lose, and by extension China to gain, by ensuring a settlement never happened. Stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by skideeppow
I'd love to see Iran without a bomb. Since an Israeli strike would almost certainly have to transit US/coalition controlled airspace it would greatly irritate our Arab 'allies'
Iran tried to bomb the Iraqi reactor a year before the Israelis destroyed it. The Iranian strike failed. I'm sure Iran was stoked about the Israeli strike.Quote:
Originally Posted by skideeppow
Israel striking multiple hardened Iranian nuclear targets is much harder than hitting a single unfueled reactor complex at a closeby location near Bagdahd.
They also have to have tacit American permission because they will have to fly all the way across Iraq... twice... guess who owns that airspace? The range will limit what planes they can use and in what number unless they orbit tankers in Iraqi airspace or use allied tankers.
i was reading this piece today, and saw mention of our peace-loving pals at rapture ready.com
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071706J.shtml
Cheerleading the Apocalypse
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Perspective
Monday 17 July 2006
Who knows but the world may end tonight?
- Robert Browning
The fighting between Israel and Lebanon over the course of the last few days presents perhaps the most dangerous moment since the Cuban Missile Crisis. The leadership of Israel and Hezbollah spend the blood of innocents to prove how very tough they are, and the lords of unreason hold sway over all. Syria trembles on the edge of significant involvement, with Iran waiting in the wings.
Annia Ciezadlo, writing for The Nation, offered a poignant snapshot of the mood on the Lebanese street. "The day after Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers," wrote Ciezadlo, "all of Beirut prepared for war in time-honored Lebanese fashion: shopping. We bought siege food, anything that doesn't need refrigeration - powdered milk, canned hummus, beans, cracked wheat."
"Less rationally, however," continued Ciezadlo, "we bought comfort food, compiling a collective shopping list of fear and craving: I bought a chocolate cake mix for no reason. Yogurt, which will spoil once the electricity dies, disappeared from the shelves. And everyone lined up to buy bread. It's going to mold in a day or two, but who doesn't feel better after smelling freshly-baked bread, and who knew when we'd smell that again?"
Noted Mideast expert Juan Cole put the ramifications from what is taking place on every American doorstep. "Americans have to understand that when Israel goes wild and bombs a civilian airport and civilian neighborhoods in Beirut," wrote Cole, "a lot of the world's Catholics (Lebanon is partially a Catholic country) and its 1.4 billion Muslims blame the United States for it. Israel is given billions every year by the United States, including sophisticated weaponry that is now being trained on the slums of south Beirut."
"It should also be remembered," continued Cole, "that Bin Laden said, at least, that he started thinking about hitting New York when he saw that 1982 Israeli destruction of the skyscrapers or "towers" of Lebanon. How many future Bin Ladens are watching with horror and rage and feelings of revenge as Israel drops bombs on civilian tenement buildings? When will this blow back on Americans?"
It is all quite terrifying, but most frightening of all are the voices being raised in support of widening this crisis into total war. William Kristol, editor of the far-right periodical The Weekly Standard, has openly stated that the crisis should be used as an opportunity to attack other Middle Eastern nations. "While Syria and Iran are enemies of Israel," wrote Kristol in an article titled "It's Our War," "they are also enemies of the United States. The right response is renewed strength - in supporting the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan, in standing with Israel, and in pursuing regime change in Syria and Iran. For that matter, we might consider countering this act of Iranian aggression with a military strike against Iranian nuclear facilities."
It should be noted that Kristol was one of the most vociferous cheerleaders for the invasion and occupation of Iraq, which has been working out splendidly thus far. One hopes there are some wiser heads somewhere who will remember this, and take Mr. Kristol's advice with a large grain of salt.
Even so, it is disturbing to hear these kinds of things. The last several years have established, beyond doubt, that the Bush administration is at best inept, and at worst deliberately destructive. Watching Bush observe the carnage with a "What me worry?" look on his face has been disgusting, if not terribly surprising. The United States has abandoned its position of leadership on the world stage, and the mayhem erupting in the Middle East, combined with provocative actions from North Korea, is a direct result of that.
If further proof of this is required, look no further than the exchange between Mr. Bush and Russian president Vladimir Putin on Saturday. Bush offered a critique of Russia's so-called democracy, and Putin shot back, "We certainly would not want to have the same kind of democracy as they have in Iraq, I will tell you quite honestly." Bush tried to laugh it off, but his face purpled with rage. And so the president of the United States is publicly slapped by the leader of Russia, and we are all lessened and shamed by it, because Putin was correct.
Much of what is happening has come about, simply, because the Bush administration is run by, and heeds the advice of, stone cold crazy people. Inside the administration lurks Dick Cheney, who with his proxy Don Rumsfeld engineered the Iraq fiasco. On the outside, and enjoying far more credibility than is deserved, are voices like William Kristol's.
And then, of course, there is the Republican base, the people who stand by Mr. Bush because they believe him to be the right arm of Jesus Christ. The fundamentalist far-right branch of Christianity that has established itself as the most powerful force in electoral politics is heeded by this administration because they owe their tenure to these people.
A lot of them are thrilled by what is happening in the Middle East. An internet forum called "Rapture Ready" offers some insight into that particular breed of right-wing Christian who cannot wait for the Apocalypse. "Gosh!!!" writes one poster, "Here we are making plans to move to the east coast and we might not even have to move after all. I say, come quickly Lord!!!"
"Israel is not a land of un-walled villages so this is probably a war that will result in that," writes another poster. "Then Gog and Magog will come. But I believe we could be raptured before. I believe before Damascus is destroyed God may rescue His children out of there." Yet another poster writes, "In another thread, someone brought up the fact that the kidnapping of the first Israeli soldier that started this whole thing was on June 25th, and if you count from that day to August 3rd ... it is EXACTLY 40 days!!!!! I find that to be a HUGE coincidence."
Etc.
Mr. Bush is accounted as the unofficial leader of these people, listens to them, and has surrounded himself with violent men who share violent dreams. An analysis of apocalyptic scripture could, perhaps, reveal the manner in which a combination of stupidity, extremism and a total lack of morality is the key which will unlock the end of days. In the meantime, I am reminded of those bumper stickers which can be seen on the roads from time to time. "In case of Rapture," they read, "this car will be empty." Once, I saw a witty rejoinder to this sentiment on another bumper: "In case of Rapture, can I have your car?"
If I were making bumper stickers, I might add a new wrinkle: "In case of Rapture, can I have my country back?"
-----------------------------------
William Rivers Pitt is a New York Times and internationally bestselling author of two books: War on Iraq: What Team Bush Doesn't Want You to Know and The Greatest Sedition Is Silence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skideeppow
The governments of the countries you listed, yes. The populace at large, probably not so much, I think.
Any action Israel would take against Iran would just be used to fuel the hatred that already exist's in the Arab world against Israel. Even if they were secretly relieved that Iran wasn't going to have a nuke.
Edit: Then again, most Arab countries are conspicuously silent about Israel's current actions against Hezbollah, so who knows?
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckethead
Well, just for clarity...
The nut cases(sorry if I offend someone with this. You are entitled to your beliefs just as I am entitled to my opinions) you referenced are "dispensationalists" that is, they believe that God interact's with the people of the earth differently during different time periods. It makes a nice neat explination for why we haven't seen miracles like the parting of the Red Sea and such for the last 2000 years.
The last 2000 years has been a different dispensation, one without miracles because they are no longer necessary because we now have the complete message of salvation in the Old and New Testament...or so the dispensationalist's would tell us. They would also tell us that this dispensation is about to end, and God will once again make himself known to the human race by taking his people off this earth and raining down his wrath on all of us poor saps that are left. Thus all the talk about the "end times".
Only one problem with calling Bush the defacto leader of these people, Bush is Methodist. Methodist's aren't dispensationalists, and tend not to believe in all this end times talk. So if he is the leader of them in any way, it's purely for political reasons, not because he shares their doctrin. At least, not if he holds to the teachings of his professed faith.
Time: Bush to Start Era of ‘Pirate Diplomacy’
by Scott Ott
(2006-07-10) — With Time magazine’s announcement that the era of President George Bush’s ‘cowboy diplomacy‘ has officially ended, the weekly opinion journal will announce next week the start of the era of ‘pirate diplomacy.’
The cowboy label came as a result of the president’s declaration that he wanted Usama Bin Laden “dead or alive.” But in the new era of pirate diplomacy, Time’s editors write that the Commander in Chief will respond to North Korean missile launches and Iranian nuclear snubs with new picturesque expressions like “Aaargh!” and “Shiver me timbers!”
“Bush is really tuned into pop culture,” according to an editorial in next week’s magazine. “What with the popularity of ‘Dead Man’s Chest‘, the president realizes that ‘pirate’ is the new ‘cowboy’.”
According to this scenario, Time editors will replace the outmoded ’swagger ‘ metaphor with the more contemporary term ’swashbuckling’ to describe the Bush doctrine.
The forthcoming editorial explains that, “The use of dramatic terms like cowboy and pirate saves time and intellectual energy for our readers, who don’t want to be bothered with careful analysis of the president’s foreign policy as it applies to varied situations. The simple people need a clever, easy-to-remember way of talking about complex issues, and we provide that.”
WTF kind of name is "Scott Ott"?
Osiraq/Tammuz strike: Operation Opera
I saw that it played one time on CNN this morning. It has not repeated, I think the secret service might have stepped in. It was a very candid conversation between Bush and Blair. It was like something out of a Clancy novel.Quote:
Originally Posted by 13
So does Israel have Nukes?
Also what was the timeline on the Rockets coming out of Lebanon? Hamas, invades Israel via tunnel kidnaps solder, Israel invades Gaza Strip.
Then what happened that led up to 300 rockets being fired from Lebanon into Israel? (AN ACT OF WAR)!
And Israel now blowing the shit out of Lebanon.
I wonder who will pay to rebuild all the Power plants and infrastructure that is now being destroyed.
I believe Israel needs to respond hard to this aggression that’s the only thing the culture respects, But I think they showed a great deal of misplaced cruelty by taking out the infrastructure of an already poor population. They have shut down Power / Water, life for many innocent people.. I would have liked to see something a bit more acute?
A guy that writes satire?Quote:
Originally Posted by Viva
Yes - profileQuote:
Originally Posted by MTT
edit: so who's selling Lebanon weapons? explosive drones?
I believe you are dead wrong on this. Lets see some documentation. The chance of f16's refueling in Iran, when the Ayatollah's where in power is close to nill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shredhead
What if the f16 fell into Iranian hands?
Lets see some proof on this one.
Yeah, almost unimaginable that Iran would allow Israeli jets to refuel in Iran--probably would've given Iraq more support during their war with Iran, given the rest of the region's feelings toward Israel.
From a BBC interview with the pilots (no mention of refueling, I think the planes had been reconfigured to carry extra fuel):
Pilot B was anxious about the runway at Etzion, Israel's Sinai Desert air base, which has since been returned to Egypt.
Pilot A demonstrates how the planes dived for the bombing run
Pilot A shows how the planes dived for the bombing run
"I was very concerned whether the runway at that altitude would be sufficient for a take-off at our weight," he recalls.
In the event, all eight F-16s got away safely along with their escorts, rising into a clear sky just before 1600 (1300 GMT).
"After you take off, you have to pinch yourself and say 'Hey, it's the real thing' because riding there it's basically 90 minutes of navigation with not a lot of activity and it's like in training," says Pilot A.
Flying in unchallenged, Pilot C remembers his first glimpse of the reactor. "It glistened with the sun shining from the low west," he says.
This was despite the dome having been covered in mud by the Iraqis, rattled by a small-scale Iranian air attack the previous autumn.
Col Raz remembers the view from the cockpit as his F-16 climbed for the bombing run: "We could look right and see Baghdad and look left and see the reactor."
Within a minute, all eight planes had dropped their twin bombs on Osirak. Only two failed to explode.
Once the bombs were released, Pilot C recalls, his only thought was "jinking the AAA [anti-aircraft artillery] and getting to low level".
With their lack of fuel ruling out dogfights, the pilots' greatest concern was the flight home.
When they touched down at Etzion, each had at most 450kg (1,000 pounds) of fuel left.
Smart bombs seem to be making the western world's leaders dumber.
Dumb bombs seem to be making the Islamic radicals bolder.
Israel public relations seem to almost purposefully instill hate.
Why debate? Just throw a volley, kill some kids on a trolly, blow some shit up and throw down some posy, things will smell real rosy.
The lay man should get the message, forget his family, his wife, his job, his house, he will rise up and fight the radicals for Israel with his posse.
Smart bombs is what they need. Smart bombs for dumb leaders dropped on the common man, the peacenik, the wife and child. Let their blood flow for the sin of living their lives in the void between the hate. The neighbors will see the flood of blood and fight the fringes.
It's an Israel mind binge, trying to squeeze a people like a syringe, to find a way to win, not worried that things could go into a spin, about becoming a shark chasing its fin.
Dumb bombs is what they need. Blow up those Jews. They'll get the message and flock to the state of Texas. A rocket in everyones back pocket will turn the land into a paradise of Islamic topic.
I need a bomb. A smart bomb, a dumb bomb, a rocket or more. Send me some missiles, some drones and a cell phone. Its all I need, from what I have seen, to make the worlds people bend before me on their weak knees.
That would be a big, very big, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT
The rocket attacks had been ongoing, but on a smaller scale. The kidnapping of course changed things, and the Israeli government has stated their intention to 'change the rules' so that Hezbollah can't have the influence that it does. Since Israel left Lebanon six years ago, Hezbollah has supposedly stockpiled 10-12000 rockets, so it's that store that they're bombing and which is being used now. Supposedly the longer range rockets are Iranian.Quote:
Also what was the timeline on the Rockets coming out of Lebanon? Hamas, invades Israel via tunnel kidnaps solder, Israel invades Gaza Strip.
Then what happened that led up to 300 rockets being fired from Lebanon into Israel? (AN ACT OF WAR)!
The rationale has been that Hezbollah relies on Lebanese infrastructure for its military activities, and obviously Israel doesn't want them to receive support from outside Lebanon during this war. As usual, civilians are caught in the middle.Quote:
I believe Israel needs to respond hard to this aggression that’s the only thing the culture respects, But I think they showed a great deal of misplaced cruelty by taking out the infrastructure of an already poor population. They have shut down Power / Water, life for many innocent people.. I would have liked to see something a bit more acute?
Read what you wrote and then get someone smart to explain it to you. You may, eventually, figure it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
This is the inevitable result of giving a group like Hezbollah free reign in your backyard--sort of like the Taliban's relationship with Al Qaeda. Lebanon had six years since Israel left to do something about Hezbollah--at the very least to keep Iran and Syria from supplying it with rockets, but chose to do nothing instead, and further made Hezbollah part of the government. Israel is now doing what the Lebanese refused to do (despite being mandated by the UN).Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryMoon
YOu make a number of good points here. I would say that it is not just about the two soilders, but about Katusha's and longer range rockets landing in the north, Haifa, Tiberias and Safat. Believe it or not, Israelis want to live in peace. That is why they moved to internationally recognized borders in the North in May of 2000 and most recently in Gaza.Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryMoon
I can not stand the argument that people say the Hezbullah weapons are not sophisticated, and Israel's response is overkill. Why are the rockets coming from the north and south? What is the reason. Israel has complied with UN resoutions in the north and south. What do they want? The sunni and shiite groups do not just want Gaza and south lebanon, they want Jerusalem, Haifa and really for all Jews to be swept into the med. When Ariel Sharon pulled out of Gaza 10 months ago, the Israel's used this as a litmus test, to see if the Palestinians could govern themselves. Yes Israel still controlled their borders and airspace, but if the rockets stopped flying and they proved that they could co exist, things would change. That did not happen. The last thing most Israelis want is to reoccupie Gaza and South Lebanon, but the Olmert Government now has carte blanche from the Isreali people and to a lesser extenet the world community to clean up South Lebanon.
Lebanon is the big loser here. Most people do not know how insane this place is, a cross between Vegas and the French Riviara, a mostly tollerant country that has a Islamic Fundamentalist group that operates within the country. You are right that in 2000, when Israel pulled out no country stepped up to help the government train an armed force that could oppose Hezbulla, but that was because Syria was really in control there. Part of UN Res 450 and 1250 (i believe that is what they are) is that Israel would withdraw from occupied southern lebanon and ALL militiase would be disarmed. This was never done, nore was it even contemplated.
That fact is it is a mess, and Israe and the US has not one to communicate with because the US Governments diplomacy is non existant.
I will say that it is obvious that as Israel showed signs of weekness and did not negotiate from a platform of strength, their enemies took advantage. The Arab world figures that Hezbullah drove them out of Southern Lebanon, so maybe the next step would be Tel Aviv. Same in Gaza, the PA and more importantly Hamas drove the Israelis to leave. This paved the way for further aggression and attacks against the internatinoaly recognized state of Israel. They have given it a chance and their neighbors did not step up. Make all the excuses you want of that, but if there were partners on the Arab side, who were interested in peace, this might have worked.
Here are two websites that I feel give great clarity and different opinions.
http://www.haaretz.com
english.aljazeera.net/HomePage"]http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage"]english.aljazeera.net/HomePage
So what is your solution to all the problems of Israel?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki
Free reign? Sorry, but it's a little more complicated than that, involving quite a bit of history, politics, power struggles and civil war. Israel has made it seem this black and white so it can justify to the world and potential critics its disproportionate incursion against a proxy Syria. There would be no problem with this if it didn't involve the suffering of millions of innocent Lebanese and destruction of its fragile pro-western/democratic government and economy. All Israel is doing now is counter-productive and risks putting Lebanon back into a failed state and converting otherwise moderates into extremists. Failed states result in groups like Hezbollah. You seem like a smart guy, so how you and many others do not see this current offensive leading to further cycles of violence is beyond me. It's a very short-sighted approach, one Israel should have learned from the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki
A very good point made here:
To quote a paper by Jessica Asoosh, a terrorism analyst at the World Security Institute in D.C:
"Wednesday’s incursion is the latest in a long series of retaliatory operations against militants in southern Lebanon. But such operations never work. If they did, Israel’s border security problem would have been resolved in 1978, when its army first entered Lebanon.
Rather than quelling the attacks, such drastic military responses escalate them and severely destabilize the entire region. In essence, Israeli action in Lebanon is akin to trying to put out a fire with gasoline.
The invasion is exactly what Hezbollah wants: a nationalist rallying point to bring even moderate Lebanese to the anti-Israeli cause. In the hours after troops crossed into Lebanon, Hezbollah supporters were in the streets of Beirut dancing and handing out sweets while making preparations for a major demonstration. Meanwhile, Israeli officials continued to make the Hezbollah propaganda machine’s work impossibly easy as Defense Forces chief Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz threatened to "turn Lebanon’s clock back 20 years."
But the sad truth is that there is little difference between these events and those of 20 years ago. Tit-for-tat retaliation games couldn’t solve the conflict then, and won’t now. While there is no quick fix to the Israel-Lebanon problem, which like so many other troubles in the region is strapped in the straightjacket of the Palestinian issue, there are options other than invasion that would go a long way in easing the tension.
First, Israel must stop walking into the public-relations traps that Hezbollah repeatedly sets for it. While the group’s frequent kidnappings are intolerable and inexcusable, the Israeli response encourages them through its predictability. Hezbollah knows it can count on a big boost at home through baiting the Israelis into crossing the border, a sore subject among even the most moderate of Lebanese, given Israel’s 22-year occupation of southern Lebanon. In fact, it was this presence that originally gave birth to Hezbollah, which was formed as a resistance against the occupying forces. The group, which has become a full political party in Lebanon’s democracy, experienced the greatest threat to its existence during the relative calm following Israel’s withdrawal in 2000. In the absence of an immediate Israeli presence against which to rebel, talk in Beirut turned to disarming the group. Simply put, Hezbollah relies on Israel’s militarism for its very existence.
History has also shown that Israeli military presence in Lebanon tends to bring other unsavory additions to the neighborhood, namely Syria. Syrian troops, which held Lebanon in a 29-year stranglehold until driven out by mass protest in 2005, remained in the country for that long on the sole pretext of counterbalancing the Israeli forces stationed in the south. Hence, an encore presence in Lebanon on the part of Israel could give Damascus the excuse it craves to reassert its military presence in its tiny neighbor.
Both these scenarios would be bad news for Israel by internationalizing its conflict with the Palestinians, drawing the region back into the political quicksand that it had somewhat wriggled out of through the liberation of Lebanon, and ultimately countering any Pyrrhic victory that recovering the kidnapped troops would provide.
Thus, the greatest weapon that Israel can use in its fight against militant fanaticism is restraint. This fact should be sternly brought to Jerusalem’s attention by the United States, whose security interests in the war on terror cannot withstand the public-diplomacy nightmare of being perceived as complicit to Israel’s cat-and-mouse border games."
Untrue. The reason the Israeli's even HAD those f-16s was the fall of the US favored government in Iran. Those F-16s were earmarked for Iran before that occured, and then were offered to Israel at a pretty good discount.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shredhead
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
Last I heard, it was a Chinese made C-802 anti-ship missile that had been sold to Iran.
Ahh...Quote:
Originally Posted by MeatPuppet
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...hina/c-802.htm
and North Korea rears its ugly head again....