Duly noted.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
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Duly noted.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
John Stewart clip from 9 years ago.
https://youtu.be/eDAISNJQQKg?si=01vpgPdxgvgsPR3Q
Crazy to me that the Gaza strip size and population is like taking every single person in Montana and North Dakota and putting them all into just the Paradise Valley.
No matter how precise the bombs are, seem inevitable that a lot of (non-Hamas) folks are bound to be killed and injured.
I’m about half way through his book - it’s a quick read.Quote:
Originally Posted by riser4
His main premise is that if Israel wants peace, it needs to stop - once and for all - putting up settlements in the West Bank and stop the blockade of Gaza.
It’s pretty crazy reading about Israeli politics of the last 20 years and it’s rightward shift. Sounds like USA…
It seems obvious that there's no clear path to peaceful coexistence under the current conditions, even before Hamas murdered/raped/abducted a bunch of civilians. Now Israel will be even less inclined to make changes to improve the economy and quality of life in Gaza/the West Bank. If teenage boys could choose stability, a job and watching shitty Marvel blockbusters, I think many of them would, but if their choice is between sitting around with nothing to do or becoming a shithead jihadi, too many will join Hamas.Quote:
Originally Posted by TBS
i very much agree with Matthew.
forced displacement is a crime but it is more humanitarian to save lives.
i also think it’s important to judge the events of today and yesterday differently than 1948. Or at least at some point, if there will ever be progress.
Egypt context. Hamas is the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Muslim Brotherhood is an Islamist group founded in Egypt whose goal is establishing sharia law under a caliphate. The organization believed in political violence against any group it deemed unIslamic including other Muslims, including assassinations of Egyptian government officials. The Brotherhood now says it's a peaceful organization that condemns violence.
Last year Hamas ethnically cleansed the Muslim Bedouin village of Om al-Nasr inside the Gaza strip. They evicted 5,000 residents at gunpoint, viciously killing and injuring many:
https://twitter.com/HananyaNaftali/s...95339801927990
For those wondering "Hey. How come Gaza doesn't have their own water and stuff? Didn't the EU (and the rest of the world) give them a shit ton of money and supplies over the last 20 years to build out their infrastructure?!", then wonder no more. This is what Hamas was up to with the pipes...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvvqBcA-9yA
Ohhhh yeah. THAT'S what those guys have been up to. Along with barring its citizens from drilling their own water wells of course. It ain't Israel's fault these guys don't have reliable water & power. That fault lies squarely with their shitty ELECTED Hamas leadership who would rather pour all their resources into weaponry than water. If you listen to the leaders of Hamas over the years, they would rather foster death than life. They've said so. For the umpteenth time, they've always been quite clear about their intentions.
"Israel Is Walking Into a Trap" Storming into Gaza will fulfill Hamas’s wish.
Israel’s apparent eagerness to fall into this trap is understandable, and indeed predictable, which is why Hamas was confident in laying it. Outrageous overreach by terrorists typically aims to provoke overreach. Washington and other friends of Israel who are now seized with sympathy should immediately caution Israel not to make this blunder. If Israel instead exercises restraint, however difficult doing so might be both politically and emotionally, it can thwart the goals of Hamas and its Iranian sponsors. Restraint would go a long way toward ensuring that the diplomatic opening with Saudi Arabia continues to move forward, dealing a major blow to local revisionist powers, such as Iran, and global ones, such as China and Russia, that wish to supplant a rules-based order with one based on “Might makes right.”
Unfortunately, in the efforts to eliminate Hamas, which cannot be done by force, and to ensure that such a threat can never be allowed to reemerge, which is equally impossible so long as the occupation continues, Israel seems ready to jump right into the briar patch.
https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...n-trap/675628/
i am in complete agreement. the arab world and un should step in and take over gaza until a solution can be reached. yes this will suck but it’s still the better option. already news of the massacre has been replaced by the toll on gaza. the israelis who go in and the palestinian people will suffer far more damage if it happens.
bombs can not kill hamas (whose leadership is abroad anyway) and whose schools will indoctrinate all the new recruits possible before the next war. they have had a long time to prepare this. let those traps go to waste and forego spilling more blood.
i’ll note that gaza is not occupied but they are not free either.
Because occupation went so well the last (few) times that creating new a incubator has just got to be the right approach... Fuck that.
Which half of the schism in the Arab world is going to say, "okay you guys do it"?Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-powderbroker
Or even less likely "let's do it together!"
i’m nominating saudi arabia to take one on the chin here to keep the peace.
killing everyone like you seem to suggest is neither the right thing to do or a winning strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by gravitylover
There is no good answer, but getting rocketed, almost every month,, over 20k in 18 yrs, just to appease the intl community, and live under an “iron dome”, is not something they’re willing to do anymore. Plus the scale of attacks is obviously rising. Can’t imagine what will happen in 10 yrs, Gaza or no Gaza.Quote:
Originally Posted by gravitylover
The whole thing was a terrible idea in 1948, and poorly implemented, , but we are where we are.
The backlash has the potential to make any naive idea we had, putting bases in Iraq and the gulf, an even bigger mistake than we previously thought, if that’s possible.
It's an abhorrent statement matched nearly word-for-word days prior by Hamas. Israel has the full right to defend itself against terror. As any other state. That does not include heedlessly attacking civilians. And, if not from a humanitarian standpoint, then from a strategic standpoint the last thing Israel needs is Muslims seeing more death & destruction in Gaza. People typically make projections based on their wish, and they fail to get dynamics. Outside of Russia and the Iranian axis of Jihad, Hamas doesn't have a lot of friends in the Middle East. Neither do Palestinians who were allied with Saddam against the Saudis and Kuwait or by other countries who took in Palestinian refugees who then immediately abused their hosts. This isn’t 20 years ago when the Israel-Palestinian conflict was central to middle east politics. Very few will want to stand with Hamas here unless popular outrage forces their hand. Israel should focus on going after Hams leadership.
Imagine the world we could be living in if the USA had done this after 9/11Quote:
Originally Posted by MultiVerse
https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/statu...91086609117660
Attachment 472677
So even according to Israel's own leading press, Gaza is a prison.
Prisoners don't attack, they revolt.
Context is important.
This guy lays it out pretty well
https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/st...86331242242124
Good read - thanks for sharing.Quote:
Originally Posted by TBS
Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by powpig
Regarding the paper, maybe good to note it’s an opinion column, not the papers position, and not regular reporting. But they are letting that opinion be heard.
“Restraint” wtf? They’re still firing rockets.
I think people really have an unreasonable definition of the word “restraint”.
How about restraint means not being willing to kill civilians without any moral qualms, as terrorists do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cono Este
Let the Chinese do it. They get to have the silk road go right through downtown Gaza. Of course it will be a dead end road, but maybe build a nice cul de sac at the end of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-powderbroker