price of gas

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

That's an absurd line of logic.

When people don't exercise on a regular basis they are less healthy and go to the hospital more, raising health care costs for everyone, including you. Are you claiming that other peoples lifestyles are your business? Maybe the government should level a tax on anyone who doesn't exercise at least three times a week to help offset the medical costs to those of us who do. I mean seriously, why should I have to pay more if I break my leg skiing, because some couch potato spends every day watching reruns of Oprah and scarfing down bags of cheesy puffs? That is my business right? According to your logic I'm impacted by her laziness so that makes her lifestyle my business. Right? Maybe we should start taxing people who have poor diets for the same reason.:rolleyes:

Where does this line of thinking stop? Other peoples beliefs impact you. Are you going there next?

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It's a balance between individual freedom and social costs. But not clear cut. If you want, to any degree, the benefits of a socialized health care, you have to accept some costs too, like the gvt messing with your life style. In my socialist country it means for instance, taxes on alcohol or tobacco to fund the healh care system or some restrictions on junk food advertising during kids TV show, or gvt funded programs to promote healthy diets.
And do not tell me that's oppression... Any private insurance company will adjust its prices according to your lifestyle.
Why an honest couch potatoe should pay for your broken bones and your reckless lifestyle anyway ?

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Originally Posted by hemas

You do realize the absurdity of your claim... The US has no Far Left as far as general political axels go... Only Far Far Right and a little to left of it.

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:D

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Originally Posted by hemas

You do realize the absurdity of your claim... The US has no Far Left as far as general political axels go... Only Far Far Right and a little to left of it.

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Oh cmon hemas, how could I be talking about anything but the States? You have been around long enough to know that nothing exists outside the borders of the US.;)

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

I grew up around, and still know, a lot of people on the far right who are just fine with a lot of government as long as the government is promoting their values.

It may be a Southern thing.

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You're not kidding on that one. The bible thumpers of the republican party (i don't really consider them to be conservative) are just as bad (maybe worse?) as david witherspoon environmentalist sky is falling let the government put up an umbrella for us all types.

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Originally Posted by David Witherspoon

C'mon. Give us something more than just gobbledygook to work with.

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Gobbledygook? Shameful. Who uses this word?

I guess you've answered that.

This thread=17 pages of shit.

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

You know, there's a lot of people that pay for gas to give you the products and conveniences you enjoy every day.

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And they pass that cost on to me. As they should and must. So I pay for it.

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

You can live with your head in the sand, and continue your self-righteous Earth saving campaign by riding your bike to the University, that's fine.

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Empty insults, par for the course.

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

But, please realize that others livelihood depends delivering you your necessities ,

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Duly noted. And as noted above - and as you surely must know - I pay for those services.

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

... and they're suffering being poor due to your and others campaign on gas pricing.

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Horseshit.

(1) They aren't poor.

(2) They pass work-related transportation costs on to me.

(3) They also pass on their non-work transportation costs - because they will price their services up in order to extract a profit that covers those costs.

(4) If they figure out a way to reduce those transportation costs - for example, by using a smaller vehicle, a hybrid, etc. - they will not pass on those savings to me. They will pocket them. Unless everyone else in their field realizes the same savings and then begin to compete with lower prices.

(5) I am not on a "campaign" to affect gas pricing. I have not even endorsed the idea of a gas tax here. Others have. Go whine at them.

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

You're biting the hand that feeds you...

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The biggest effect I have on gas prices is through my reduced demand for it. Which should reduce the price you have to pay. Thus enabling your wastefulness.

This reasoning - which I'm sure you can follow - directly contradicts your claim that I am impoverishing the working poor by raising gas prices. Yet you persist in making the claim. Bizarre.

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

but keep up the self-aggrandizing posts.

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I'm not interested in self-aggrandizement - at least not in obscure internet forums of ill repute. The opinions of a bunch of anonymous ranters?

Maybe you are projecting; your posting pattern suggests that you care greatly about your perception of other anonymous posters' perceptions of your anonymous internet persona.

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

It only outlines your ignorance.

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That sort of statement doesn't play very well when you consistently preface it with demonstrations of your own stupidity. I'm forced to conclude that you are not merely playing the fool, or even posting carelessly, but are in fact genuinely stupid.

I'd ask you to confirm or deny, but one of the attributes of the genuinely stupid is that they are incapable of accurately judging their own stupidity.
So we'll just have to draw our own conclusions from your posts.

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Originally Posted by David Witherspoon

And they pass that cost on to me. As they should and must. So I pay for it.

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You do pay for it, which is fine. But you just seem to bitch about it a lot too.

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Originally Posted by Dromond

I don't know if that makes sense, but I've started to by my gas primarily from Sunoco, based on this: http://www.betterworldhandbook.com/gasoline.html

That said, I'm commuting by bike, bus and carpool this summer. I'm going to try to use the car only when absolutely necessary!.

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I saw that link a month ago or so on this forum and I have stopped purchasing gas from Mobil. It is the only gas station in the tiny town I live in, but i work in an area that has a sunoco--so, i just have to plan and make sure i am not on E and I am good. I would like to go to BP, which was second on the list, but that is only because i love their commercials. Hey - i switched to geico too because of their commercials.

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Originally Posted by sirbumpsalot

take an econ 101 class and you will understand. Sorry.

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I dont boycott mobil to get gas prices down either--i am choosing the lessor of the evils - just like how i vote for president too.

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Originally Posted by David Witherspoon

That sort of statement doesn't play very well when you consistently preface it with demonstrations of your own stupidity. I'm forced to conclude that you are not merely playing the fool, or even posting carelessly, but are in fact genuinely stupid.

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That one was quote-worthy.

The future is in burning Kung PaoChicken fat, the chinese are way ahead of us.

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

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Originally Posted by David Witherspoon

Yes, anything that impacts me and mine is my business.

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That's an absurd line of logic.

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No, it's almost a tautology: anything that impacts me will concern me.
I'm sure you agree. And the instant you determine that something impacts you, I'm sure you'll make it your business.

What I can, should, or should be allowed to do about it is another matter. Which Phillipe already noticed and addressed.

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

Rant full of extreme examples, followed by slippery slope argument, appeal to scary thought police consequences, and imputation of said position to me.

Cmon David, you are smarter than that.

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Are you smarter than your post suggests?
Surely you're aware that driving on the roads is a privilege, not a right? That everything we do on the roads is governed by many laws, all of which were passed to reduce our impacts on each other? Everything from traffic safety laws, speed limits, emissions regulations, weight limits, extra fees paid by extra heavy vehicles, prohibitions on many sorts of vehicles, limitations on studded tires, and yes, even seat belt laws?

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

Stop cherry picking segments from different peoples arguments then trying to show contradiction by combine them. Everyone has their own ideas, beliefs, and styles of argument.

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You may have a point. Blurred may genuinely believe that, by buying less gas, I am raising gas prices. Maybe he disagrees with your point that oil companies make more profits by selling more gas.

Regarding cherry picking - check out the pattern of who focuses on work-related gas consumption while ignoring or trivializing luxury consumption.

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Originally Posted by Brock Landers

You do pay for it, which is fine. But you just seem to bitch about it a lot too.

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On the contrary. I would rather pay the full cost, including at least an approximate accounting of environmental costs, instead of the subsidized cost.

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Originally Posted by StoneCold

Show me a "real" option other than driving my truck, that still allows me to do what I do, that I can incorporate easily into my daily life and I would be interested.

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With those kinds of limits - allowing you do do what you want, and easily incorporated - only you can figure it out. Throw in some economic realities (like the cost of changing vehicles, or owning two vehicles, the time cost of public transit or carpooling, the effort of scheduling instead of purely habitual commuting, etc.) and the truck might make sense now. Or not, I don't have the information to make a decent guess.


I owned a small truck for a while. As is my habit, I got it cheap, ran it until maintenance was becoming too costly and reliability too poor, then donated it to someone who could eke out some last bit of value from it. Since it was small, it got good mileage, but we never used it for long distances. It was handy for picking up stuff; I miss that sometimes, but I can do without it. I would've used it several times in the last few weeks if I had it, because of spring home & garden improvement season. But I've managed without it, and sometimes it's been for the best that I didn't have my own truck for the task. Especially for hauling large amounts of compost and manure.


Anyway, the factors to consider are time, money, convenience, and unaccounted costs of impacts on others and the environment.


Obviously time matters when you consider public transit, carpooling, or biking. I find it difficult to get anything useful done on a short public transit commute, and the bike ride is almost as quick as driving for me, so I prefer to bike for the exercise. Except when the pollen is too much for me. Tradeoffs everywhere, what can I say.

Sometimes people try to value their time according to their hourly wages. I guess that's a starting point, but it doesn't make sense for long. I value an hour of my personal free time more highly than my paid time. Maybe thinking of it as overtime, paid at 150% or more, makes more sense ...



By convenience, I mean more than just time. It's the habits, organization, and mental effort. It's actually easier to bike to work every day than every other day. Habits are easy and efficient. An economist might find that it would be optimal for someone to bike to work every third work day - but in my case at least, that would be suboptimal, because I'd have to think about it insted of just doing it automatically.

Then there's the convenience value of being able to do 100% of everything you feel like doing with one vehicle. Everything from driving five blocks to the grocery store to hauling two tons of landscaping boulders across the state. Many people buy a vehicle based on their fantasy of a situation they will never experience - something they saw in an advertisement, most likely.

You know, the Hummer perched on a sandstone pinnacle. Never mind that it either took a helicopter to get up there - or they're just showing you the edge of a cliff with the parking lot and visitors' center just out of view.

Doesn't make financial sense to buy based on a fantasy, or to cover even 95% of your expected / hoped-for challenges. Sure, it was nice to have AWD in a blizzard on the interstate, and on a slimy clayey road in a downpour in the desert. In both cases, however, the smart, safe thing to do was stop. And if possible, turn around and go back. Which we did. In both instances, we eventually got home safely, without vehicle damage. Unlike drivers of the overturned SUVs we stopped to check on. Or the jackknifed semis & pileup we heard about from the emergency personnel.

Regularly taking a minute to think about your safety is worth more than AWD, ABS, airbags and health insurance.


Money isn't as simple as it sounds - as you've already noted, the price of gas is just not that high compared to other expenses. You may be spending about 15 cents a mile on gas, but you're spending about twice that per mile on depreciation, insurance, registration, property tax, maintenance and repair. So buying a cheaper vehicle that's easy to maintain may be more important economically than buying a more fuel-efficient vehicle. The costs of owning a vehicle, even if you never drive it, are high enough to make two vehicles for one person unwise (unless you really drive a lot.) For a family, a tiny commuter and a road-tripper makes more sense - depending on whether or not they can share commutes, etc.

Worth keeping in mind that you never see anyone doing a cost/benefit analysis of power adjustable heated leather seats.


Unaccounted costs - can be difficult to deal with simply because they're not well quantified.
If you want to offset the carbon costs of driving, that's not hard - total up your emissions and find a way to offset them. An easy way to start is by buying wind power from your utility. Most utilities offer an option to purchase electricity from non-fossil sources.

In SLC, pollution is a concern - so our local emissions requirements are stricter than those in surrounding counties. Not strict enough, so our air quality is dangerous on a number of days per year. So there's unaccounted pollution costs; hard to put a dollar value on that, since it affects health and quality of life. I figure riding a bike whenever possible and driving a SULEV the rest of the time is a good start.

A convenient way to think about any action you might take is to estimate what would happen if 5 or 10 percent of everybody took that same action (or applied the same rule you are using, which would lead to different actions in different circumstances.) Would the benefits outweigh the costs? If so, go for it. If not, look for better options.


Then there's luxury - well, once you've consciously considered why you have a vehicle, what you really need it for, what the tradeoffs and costs are, you'll be able to separate the luxuries from the needs. Maybe some other luxury - a new pair of skis with bindings, for example - will be more appealing than the rumble of a big engine.


YMMV

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Originally Posted by David Witherspoon

On the contrary. I would rather pay the full cost, including at least an approximate accounting of environmental costs, instead of the subsidized cost.

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In Europe their accounting for gas costs result in a price approximately double our currently elevated price. I suggest that gas prices do not even come close to taking into account all the externalities, even ignoring the environmental costs. I'm thinking here of the costs of procurring, and protecting, supplies using our 'Defence' Department resources.

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Originally Posted by David Witherspoon

(5) I am not on a "campaign" to affect gas pricing. I have not even endorsed the idea of a gas tax here. Others have. Go whine at them.

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So says the person whining about what others drive.

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The biggest effect I have on gas prices is through my reduced demand for it. Which should reduce the price you have to pay. Thus enabling your wastefulness.

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Your global warming "sky is falling" campaign has a MUCH bigger effect on gas prices than David Witherspoon riding his bike. I hope you don't own a car.

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This reasoning - which I'm sure you can follow - directly contradicts your claim that I am impoverishing the working poor by raising gas prices. Yet you persist in making the claim. Bizarre.

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Try and follow the reasoning that the same things you preach against are greatly needed by you, thus making you a hypocrite. Your holier than thou bullshit is amazing.

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I'm not interested in self-aggrandizement - at least not in obscure internet forums of ill repute. The opinions of a bunch of anonymous ranters?

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So is that why you constantly post your political agenda here? Because you don't care? Bullshit.

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Maybe you are projecting; your posting pattern suggests that you care greatly about your perception of other anonymous posters' perceptions of your anonymous internet persona.

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You mean like your non-stop rants in an attempt to prove what intelligence you have?

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That sort of statement doesn't play very well when you consistently preface it with demonstrations of your own stupidity. I'm forced to conclude that you are not merely playing the fool, or even posting carelessly, but are in fact genuinely stupid.

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You constantly attempt to put yourself on an intelligence pedestal. Me thinks you have issues with that.

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I'd ask you to confirm or deny, but one of the attributes of the genuinely stupid is that they are incapable of accurately judging their own stupidity.
So we'll just have to draw our own conclusions from your posts.

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How ironic.

I'm sure the USA would flourish and give you your same way of life if we all rode bikes. It's a pity you're so ashamed of being a human.

$3.97 / gallon for 93 octane here in Chicago today. I'm driving with the windows down, a/c on and in a a gear lower than I should. Go OPEC!

hm it s around 7.66 dollars for 95 octane in germany. if i conversed correctly.

and it's all because of you damn americans with all your fucked up environmental protectionism keeping oil companies to invest in refineries. :cussing:

i think i m about to go amok right now.. :D

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Originally Posted by truth

$3.97 / gallon for 93 octane here in Chicago today. I'm driving with the windows down, a/c on and in a a gear lower than I should. Go OPEC!

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Just one gear? dude....you could be consuming so much more! I'm never sure if it uses more fuel to tack it out in 4low (cannot ever use full throttle) or to bump it against the limiter (cover a lot of ground that way) :)

1. This year's big Memorial Day weekend race: "The Indy 5"

2. John Deere mowers are now actual deer

3. Guy at gas station who changes prices has developed "carpal tunnel syndrom"

4. Exxon now offering special 3.9% financing

5. It takes longer to fill up your tank these days because the escrow department is overwhelmed

6. Paris Hilton will have to carpool to jail.

7. In order to keep driving Kit the Knightrider car, David Hasselhoff is now eating Mac and cheese off the living room floor.

8. Next season’s “American Chopper” will be renamed to “American Moped”

9. Free car with purchase of fill-up.

10. Jay Leno is now collecting postage stamps.

11. Drive-by siphonings.

12. New show “pimp my steam-engine”

13. Bush now planning to invade actor Vin Diesel.

14. Regis Philbin hosting new game show: “Who wants to drive home?”

15. Dominoes Pizza now delivered by Federal Express

OIl reserves are rising with innovations in drilling and price. Good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/bu...d024f4&ei=5070

the greatest misallocation of resources or a technosis externality clusterfuck

james howard kunstler on the benefits of urban sprawl.. :D

sorry for bumping this thread.. but this is just to entertaining. btw - the most remarkable point in the context of this thread is probably his side note at the very end on self-perception as a consumer versus citizen.

oh and brooklyn - don´t go raging on me, it is not an all-american issue.. ;)

great video. I read The Long Emergency, but I have never heard him speak. Funny.

Yay for bumping a fine fine thread !

It has it all : B11, Jer, David W, health care, taxes, global warming, US / yurp flame war...

Legendary stuff.