Appreciated the rest of your post as well, but quoting your reference to a legend just in case anyone missed it. Back to skis that smash stuff....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvan
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Appreciated the rest of your post as well, but quoting your reference to a legend just in case anyone missed it. Back to skis that smash stuff....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvan
Sorry missed this; '89 was a good year!Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed
Hey LT,Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Thomas
Apologies for the delay, been a slow start up here. I have a few days on Squads, from refrozen to soft groomers, 40 degree angle and below west coast chop and pow, and some alpine bony steeps, plus maybe 20 days on 191 K108s that have seen everything WB has to offer.
Me: 6'2, 195#, 41 y/o, WB home resort, grew up w/ instruction but never raced. Own and love: Metal lam skis (189 B97, 191 K108, 188 CMD 118, 193 Confession), Squads. Like: The rest. Disliked: R10s (just not for me). Generally prefer mounts @ -10+-.
191 K108 (190 straight pull, 2455g/ski, +1(-10.5), 21mR underfoot) vs Squad (193.3 straight pull, 2435g/ski, -2(-8.25), 25mR)
191 K108: See above posts, but if I was to categorize these, I would say they're a modern take on a traditional metal lam charger. Traditional mount, minimally tapered, heavy, stiff and slightly round flex (not CMD 118 stiff, but close), offset by an approachable and pivoty long and low rocker profile, and a tight sidecut. These are the most versatile ski I own, and would be my pick for a quiver of 1 WB resort ski. You can live on the shovels and tails, in 2 and 3D, and they rail better than all my skis save B97s, be it groom or turning bowls into GS courses, shallow or deep. They also handle steeps well, and smash chop as good as CMD 118s, and better than the rest of my skis. Only real drawbacks are Squads and B97s are smoother as conditions trend refrozen, and I pressure my boot anytime I'm going straight to keep the sidecut in check. Anytime I grab these, I almost always have the right tool.
Squad: If I was to categorize these, I'd say they're a burly freeride ski, or a playful charger. They're also minimally tapered, similarly heavy, have a longer running length, and are pretty cambered in comparison, but the non-metal lam, fiberglass and rubber layup, produces a surprisingly soft and round flex (in length and torsion), that allows me to bend em into any shape I want, and that also makes em feel like magic carpets. Completely different construction, but re flex, think a smoother/quieter R11 w/o the hinge points and more top end (I also thought burlier 2007 foam cored Scratch BC in flex alone, but it's been a while). The flip side to the flex is that I can't drive the shovels as hard as I want, or hammer the tails, or put another way, they need to be skied with a little more balance. With that said, the -2(-8.25) line has worked well for me as the 193ish TL means there's still plenty of ski out front (thanks Bry). I had em out in some lower angle knee deep, west coast pow and chop, and while I had to ski em slightly more centered than K108s, with some speed they planed up great, and handled our chop without issue, if not as well as CMD118s/K108s. On edge (groomers, etc), they're not nearly as energetic as B97s/K108s, but they have good edge hold, produce some energy, and will let you make shapes back to the lift (see above about shovels/tails). In that regard, they kinda remind me of a more progressively mounted Cochise 106 that can't be driven quite as hard. The biggest plus for these is how short they ski; I skied some early season bony steeps today (Sylvain and Bushrat), and the approachable flex makes em super easy for a ski this big. I would put the 'length' between 192 R11s and 191 K108s/189 B97s/193 Confessions, in that order. I also think this will be the ski I grab if I'm going to ski something for the first time; the Saudan choke right now is about a ski length wide, and icy AF, and the ability to bend these meant it was super comfy. The straighter shape also makes em track a little more relaxed, and the swing weight is lower comparatively, and more balanced in the air. Was mostly safety skiing in the alpine cause its thin, but I have pushed em hard mid-mountain and don't think I'll find the top end. I'd also take these below treeline as the softer flexing tail is super easy to smear. If K108s are my pick (based on what I've skied) for quiver of 1, I would happily DD these, as long as I got to keep B97s for firm race-y days too. Oh, and yellow bases need wax.
Only other thing I'd mention, and this is conjecture, but I feel like a bigger/stronger human than I, with room to run, would likely find the top end of the Squad b4 the 191 K108. The K108 takes some aggression/speed to get the flex working, where the Squad is smooth from go.
Both great skis, and room for both for just the right level of addict. Some shape and profile pics below. Hope this helps, and would love to hear other Mag's thoughts on these two skis, to help round out the comparison for ya. Cheers LT.
Edit to add: After a few alpine days on Squads, decided to sell em. Cool ski, I just prefer a stiffer flexing ski for my 195#, traditional preferences and room to run.
Shapes
Attachment 438051
Profiles
Attachment 438052
De-cambered (outside of straps signify contact points)
Attachment 438053
Sylvan,
You the man. This was worth the wait as it's all useful information that I can relate to and put to use. Despite the fact that I'm a fair bit older it sounds like our skier profiles and ski tastes across the board are strikingly similar. Right now I'm sort of on the hunt for a ski in the slot currently occupied by the OG Bibby 190, this sounds like a top candidate. Now I just need to find a pair to try
Sylvan. Awesome review. If I was skiing somewhere with more room to let them run I’d be all over those K108s. My V-Werks Katanas just make a whole lot more sense in the tight trees.
Good to hear! Welcome to test drive mine next time you're north of the border should you still be on the hunt (317 BSL/P15 adjustment range). Excited to spend more time on all of em. Cheers man!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Thomas
Thanks! Yah, those KVWs sound like a great choice for your neck of the province, which, admittedly, is still on the list, but hopefully not for long. Good winter!Quote:
Originally Posted by kootenayskier
Can anyone here give a direct comparison to the OG Cochise? I'm currently on the 185 Cochise, and I really like them, but sometimes I have to force myself to ski them aggressively or they just punish me. Like today, typical resort a few days after a big cycle, where there is still lots of soft crud, but the trenches are starting to get really deep and bigger moguls are forming. I felt like I had to ski three runs before it came together for me today and I was driving them.
I ski the V-werks Katana as a bc setup and it may be my favorite ski ever, but I think it would be too light for me in the resort.
Skied the OG Cochises 185 exclusively for 7-8 years and now on the K108 184. In a nutshell the OG Cochises are a muscle car from the 70s and the Katanas are current. The Katana does imo everything better except buttery slarves and that’s even close. Tried my Cochises last week for the first time in two years to see if I was missing something. Took one run and changed back to the K108s. I also ski the Vwerks which are also one of my favorite skis for certain conditions.
Sylvan’s and Bandit Man’s reviews are spot on.
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Awesome thanks, I think I need to get on a pair and try them.Quote:
Originally Posted by swissbro
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Another question, I found a pair, mounted on the line for a 295bsl. I’m at 305 bsl and seller confirms that the bindings have enough adjustment to work without remount. However, that would put me at 1/2 cm back from the line and it seems most here like these at plus 1cm from the line.
Am I going to notice being back 1/2 cms (1.5 cms from what most are mounting)? I guess I could always remount the toe a cm forward and end up plus 1/2 cm from line. Am I overthinking this?
How big are you and what size are you skiing?Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
Was going to say, ski them and remount the tow if they feel too long, but you figured it out. They have a pretty decent sweet spot and you know when you’re in it, because the ski works and becomes relatively easy to manage. Get in the back seat and it gets a bit tougher to turn. The tail isn’t overly stiff, though. Great ski that is hard to beat if it works for your style and locale.
5’11” and 170. 184’s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit Man
I think you’ll be fine. The 184 is the right size. And if you want to get on the shovels more, do the remount. I’m 5’ 8” and 200-lbs. I have some weight on you, but I’m a 25.5 mounted on the rear line, which some would say equates to being -1-cm behind it. I’m pretty happy with them there.Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
Also, you asked about comparisons to the OG Cochise in the 185. I’ve had a pair since they came out. I believe that the new Katana is a better resort ski in every way except maybe for pivoting or smearing in trees where the zero camber Cochise gets the edge. I’d say they are neck in neck straight-lining in crud, but that the Katana floats better in deep snow where the Cochise tends to submarine. I’ve only skied my OG Cochise twice since owning the Katana and am seriously considering selling them. The Katana is just more fun, less work, and far more versatile.
Deleted for reading compression fail.
Ok, I swear I read it here but can’t find it now; which line of the three is the recommended line? I assume the center line and then the other two are +1 and -1?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit Man
Just getting the bindings adjusted to my boot and trying to determine where I’ll fall. He claimed he was on the line at 295 bsl but I don’t think he was.
Furthest back is rec, then +1 and 2.
Interesting. The guy I bought them from assumed the shop had mounted them “on the line” for him at 295, but he was +2. It looks like at 305 I am +1.5 cm now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvan
I assume I may lose a touch of float in powder but will that bother me at all in typical 2 day after the storm resort conditions? I’m excited to give them a try either way.
Mounts are obv personal, but I’m at plus 1 and happy (317 BSL/P15/Krypton). Didn’t try ‘em elsewhere though. Think Shorty played with mounts via demos and landed plus 1 as well. I would personally prefer plus 1.5 to the line. YMMV and Happy New Year!
1st powder day on the k108. 1ft-1.h ft, medium density powder.
I'm 160 lbs, and the skis are 177, mounted on the most forward if the three lines.
My last skis were 184 metal katanas 112.
I felt today that if i load the tips like on the 112s, the tips were diving. I adjusted my stance and they skied ok.
But I'm wondering if i mounted them to far forward. The ski in front of the binding looks really short even compared to my 178 vwerks mantras.
Any comments?
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Shorter length of a ski that skis kinda short, mounted at +2, and you have some tip dive? Fascinating.
If it were me I’d mount at recommended and see if that felt better.
+1...and the K108 is narrower with less rocker. I would also add that the K108 does fine in up to about a foot of powder, but it wouldn't be my choice as a powder day ski...more like for the day after.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustonen
Which one is the recommended like?
There are 3
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The long one. Then +1, +2.Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301
I skied mine for the first time. I’m 5’11”, 165 pounds mounted at +1.5 on the 184. They skied great on groomers and anywhere without moguls that I could let them run but I’m not sure they are the daily driver I’m looking for. In moguls, I found them to be a handful. Moguls were medium to large size (for Snowbasin) with a little bit of softness to them, and random spacing. I fully admit that this may be a technique thing as it’s not my favorite condition and never been a strong suite. It felt like I had a hard time staying in the front of my boots through the bumps. I can probably let this go as I’ll normally search out something else to ski.
The other area that I had some trouble was in steep, tight trees with lightly tracked to untracked, settled snow of about 12 inches. They felt a little too locked into turns for this condition. Like I would commit to a turn but then see the spacing in the trees differently and it didn’t feel like I could easily release and change the turn shape, which would put me off of my preferred line.
I’m going to spend some more time on them and see if they click. I have a feeling that if I could spend a sunny day in open terrain I would love them for that. But I am looking for the elusive quiver of one here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
Seems like you had a pretty typical K108 experience. :) They absolutely rule in the proper environments and you start to see the limitations in tight spaces and deeper snow. I tend to avoid bumps when I'm on them. I also find them quite manageable in like 6"-8" of fresh snow is fine, but the minimal tail rocker is an issue when it gets deeper or heavier. They are one of the more "serious" skis out in the market today, albeit fairly accessible when they have room to run.
My one-two DD approach is either my M102/K108 on firmer or variable days and my MFree108's when it's deeper and softer. Sounds like you had them out on an Mfree108 kind of day. ;)
You might like the new QST 106 too. I own both. The QST has much more camber and more early rise, especially in the tail. It skis lighter and quicker than the Volkl. I thought I would probably sell one of them but they are different enough to keep both.Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
BTW, I scored them not long ago from Ptex1 at a nice price.
Curious what length you are on for both skis?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beder
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184 Katana and 181 QST. I hesitated with the 181 thinking no way, too short, but it feels right.Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
Ha, exactly. I may have to try some, I’m curious now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beder
Can anyone compare K108 and MPro 105? Have been enjoying my Katana but snagged a pair of new MP105 and now have some remorse to mount them if no one buys it.
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You should enjoy having both. You would grab the LP105 less but when you skied it it would put a huge smile on your face. Once you nail the tune to your spec to offset the camber, you can't beat that build and shape IMO
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Well if I had a pair of K108's, I would definitely mount on the rec line. I just did a remount to my M102's back to the rec line after being about 12mm forward of rec. That was the way to go for me. Maybe my reason for liking the back line is that I am a bigfoot in a 28.5 boot. Pretty sure both Bandit and Shorty J have small feet which could explain why they like +1.
You are 100% right about me, but I think Bandit is on the line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Pabst
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Ok, this is a dumb question and may be a tune thing that I don’t understand, but in the two days I’ve been on these, I’ve crossed the tips 3-4 times, twice resulting in a spectacular crash. Three times in steep moguls, and once today in moderate angle, moderately smooth snow. For the record, in the past two weeks I’ve also skied my OG Cochise and my V-werks Katanas and haven’t done this. As far as I know, I haven’t crossed tips in years.
Is it the ski, the tune, style, stance??
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Definitely not the skill of the rider.Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
I think you’re mounted forward on a flat camber ski that likes to wander anyways. You lean back and widen your stance and there you go. But without watching it who knows.
I got rid of mine because at speed in variable snow I had to spend too much time minding the tips.
295-mm BSL and I’m on the rear line. Couldn’t imagine needing to go forward (for my style), but I also have 200-lbs working for me with this ski. [emoji16]Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty_J
Just spent Friday up at Blackcomb on my 184’s. OMG…I almost forgot how much I enjoy these on a Big mountain with Big terrain. Spent lots of time well north of 50-mph on soft groomers. I love how easy they are to back off the edges, slide the tails around, and shut down speed. Then, jump off trail in the 6-8” of Pow and wind-affected crud and they float and push through everything. With the 3D sidecut, they are like a fat race ski, with just enough give in that tail to feel forgiving in crappy snow.
I think I need a backup pair of 184’s. [emoji6]
Heh, my skill is def in question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustonen
But seriously, cant tell if you’re being snarky and saying it’s me (it’s likely me, I just don’t know why), or you’re saying that you had some similar drama with them?
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Also, I am mounted forward, but would 1.5 cm cause that problem? If I don’t click with these I likely won’t risk the value loss in a remount to find out, I think I’ll move on.
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If you can ski the OG Cochise and Vwerks, you’re no slouch. So, I’m going with stance/style or tune. Both the OG Cochise and Vwerks have a much larger, single radius sidecut, which may also be a factor. Also, if you are a skis close together kind of skier, those fat tips and 3D sidecut can work against you.Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
I cannot quite put my finger on it, but after spending so much time on my 184 M102/K108 (and perhaps adjusting my technique to suit those skis), I have really fallen out of love with my 185 OG Cochise. Like in a “what did I ever like about these?” kind of way.
Little snark… old TGR habits die hard.
But also, I found them to be twitchy and you had to think about both skis to keep them in line at speed on any snow that wasn’t smooth. For me, this meant thinking about how much rotational force I was applying to each ski, especially when they were flat or in variable conditions.
Forward mount exacerbated this. If your skill/experience level isn’t up to it or you have bad habits, that will be magnified too. I bet they’re great at low speeds on groomers or in 6” of fresh snow. I bet longer sidecut skis you leave the outside ski behind frequently, but with the weird 3d+ tight sidecut you see the opposite with these.