WASATCH STOKE, CONDITIONS, OBSERVATIONS AND ASSORTED DRIVAL 17-18

I guided Class V whitewater for years and there were times when a rapid wasn't safe and we couldn't run it commercially. Clients would get pissy and say they paid for it and that we had to do it. Our answer was always that they paid for our judgement and for us to take them down the river as safely as possible, and that meant not happening today. Grumpy customers who live to come back another day are better for business than dead customers. Letting them bully you because they paid is just shitty guiding.

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Originally Posted by whyturn

^^^ I’ve been cat skiing and guide is like ok one at a time with buddy and then first person goes and all others except me got panicked they will miss Powder and everyone goes
I’ve also seen people flat out ignore the guides Guide scolds them and people tell guide they paid good money and don’t have to listen to the guide.
Not saying this did or did not happen here but I’ve seen some real bad guests also.

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That's the whole guide shake out thing. Do a lap in benign terrain and give them specific directions to see who your dealing with.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thereco...ose-brown-m-ms

I've been cat skiing quite a few times and letting clients decide the rules typically isn't the scenario. If you find yourself in an operation that operates with such rules perhaps you should rethink your scheduling decisions.

^^^that really was not my point. They shut the shenanigans down quick but it really screwed the terrain we could ski. But I did go with Targhee cats and the guide sent those guys down first and more tracked area. We waited and he let us go right into a really sweet area. So guides have to find a way

Anyways it was pretty good on xmas day at alta.

Fuck 2017. Bring on 2018. It cant be much worse.... whatever entity that is really in charge.. if you are listening... that is not a challenge!

All things considered the sheltered north facing terrain has decent snow. Just need to watch for stumps a little bit. The exit routes are another story....

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Originally Posted by TheFugitive

Fuck 2017. Bring on 2018. It cant be much worse.... whatever entity that is really in charge.. if you are listening... that is not a challenge!

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Duderino, you got a sick new job in 2017. It was a year for character building :)

Over in BCC the holiday crowds are gone & groomer ripping is en vogue.

Cheers to 2018

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...7042704858.jpg

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Originally Posted by Bromontana

Duderino, you got a sick new job in 2017. It was a year for character building :)

Over in BCC the holiday crowds are gone & groomer ripping is en vogue.

Cheers to 2018

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...7042704858.jpg

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Thanks buddy! Im in a glass half empty kinda mood. Railing groomers is great and all but some snow would be nice. Lets get out for a tour sometime!

👍 ideally after some stroms cover the promised land

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Originally Posted by ~mikey b

The whole thing is pretty fucked up. I think you’ll see more when they update the report.

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ya got a picture of the crown and a slick videos devoid of facts pertaining to the accident
im with brutah utah exum gots some good peeps
ive had positive on mountain encounters with tysen and negative ones
accidents happen and reports should help others learn from them so its doing a public disservice to intentionally
omit facts to protect your spansers

an oag used to do holiday reports in rhyme
now it seems to be about protecting revenue streams and making dime
conditions for january in the satch, the mind it boggles
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y19...psyogtao7z.jpg
had great fun skiing walk on dancing room tram laps with with my bmc bros
but the world the bums reside ins viewed thru weeds tinted goggles
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y19...pscnegoul1.jpg
may ya all make the best of what 2018 offers

At least the sun's still low so the snow stays soft despite the warm temps.

Took a visit to the pc ridgeline for NYE , found good snow in the sheltered trees, found whomps and collasping snow in the flats.

Got up this evening for a little sunset stroll with the wife. Watched the sunset and the super moon rise.

Looks like 2018 will be a good year to practice discipline and patience. Cheers maggots!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...f3b9fe923f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...a3a47196c0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e7a1a6e7f4.jpg

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"If you're a ski bum and you don't ski you're just kind of a bum."

Happy New Year, fuckos.

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Originally Posted by skifishbum

ya got a picture of the crown and a slick videos devoid of facts pertaining to the accident
im with brutah utah exum gots some good peeps
ive had positive on mountain encounters with tysen and negative ones
accidents happen and reports should help others learn from them so its doing a public disservice to intentionally
omit facts to protect your spansers

an oag used to do holiday reports in rhyme
now it seems to be about protecting revenue streams and making dime
conditions for january in the satch, the mind it boggles

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I fully agree - UAC should have more info about the accident and it is strange that they don't. I'm pretty wary of accusing them of "protecting revenue and making dime" ... they seem like a pretty good group and I always assumed they got by on donations and a meager budget from the state. I don't picture a bunch of fat-cats sitting around laughing at us regular folk from their swanky offices .... but ... maybe you have more info for those fairly serious accusations? There's a fair bit of evil out there, I'm not sure I'm ready to lump the UAC in with it ... seems like they provide a pretty important public service and do a good job of it too. Still, definitely worth asking why not more details around this event....

From the report:

Periodic storms during October, November, and early December interspersed by long durations of high pressure allowed the snowpack to develop weak, faceted layers of sugary snow. The only missing ingredient in the required recipe for avalanches was a slab on top. Storms accompanied by high winds from Saturday 12/23 through Monday 12/25 put put down 2' of storm and wind-drifted snow in upper Little Cottonwood Canyon, overloading these buried persistent weak layers.

Avalanche activity on mid and upper elevation slopes facing north through east, and continued reports of collapsing and cracking, throughout the week prior to this incident indicated continued instability.

This was a classic persistent slab avalanche:

1. There were numerous tracks on adjacent slopes with no evidence of avalanching;

2. The fourth skier on the slope triggered the avalanche.

With a persistent (or deep) avalanche problem, tracks on a slope are zero indication of stability. All it takes is for one person to find a weak spot and the entire slope can avalanche, taking out prior tracks. These types of avalanches also allow a rider to get well out onto a slope before avalanching, and it is not uncommon for the avalanche to fracture widely - and above the rider.

From reports we have received, more than one skier was on the slope when it avalanched. It is crucial to only expose one person at a time on a slope, and get out of the runout zone at the bottom, and then wait for the next rider to enter the slope.

Our current persistent slab structure can easily be identified by digging down 1 to 3' deeply in the snowpack. If you find the structure of strong snow (denser, harder to penetrate) over weak snow (softer, easier to penetrate) this is evidence of a poor snowpack structure, and the types of slopes that should be avoided. In the Wasatch mountains, this problem currently exists on mid and upper elevation slopes facing north through east.

I would call the above an objective criticism of the guide’s failure to recognize a common persistent problem and travel with his group accordingly. It’s certainly no scathing review but it clearly states the mistakes that were made. That accident could have been avoided.

As a government entity, UAC has to be careful what they say and how they say it. Lawyers are going to make some $ outta this one I bet.

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Originally Posted by ~mikey b

I would call the above an objective criticism of the guide’s failure to recognize a common persistent problem and travel with his group accordingly. It’s certainly no scathing review but it clearly states the mistakes that were made. That accident could have been avoided.

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+1

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Originally Posted by ~mikey b

I would call the above an objective criticism of the guide’s failure to recognize a common persistent problem and travel with his group accordingly. It’s certainly no scathing review but it clearly states the mistakes that were made. That accident could have been avoided.

As a government entity, UAC has to be careful what they say and how they say it. Lawyers are going to make some $ outta this one I bet.

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I agree, their updated report is as thorough as we should expect any report. I was overly critical in my initial reaction and I apologize.

You didn’t hurt my feelings...

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Originally Posted by ~mikey b

I would call the above an objective criticism of the guide’s failure to recognize a common persistent problem and travel with his group accordingly. It’s certainly no scathing review but it clearly states the mistakes that were made. That accident could have been avoided.

As a government entity, UAC has to be careful what they say and how they say it. Lawyers are going to make some $ outta this one I bet.

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I agree. The role of UAC is to state what happened, what mistakes were made and how they can be prevented in the future. In all those regards, the updated report succeeds.

Although I doubt that this will happen, I do wish the guide would have his own write-up as to what happened that could be posted on UAC. It would be really interesting to see what his thought process was and what factors caused him to make some pretty fundamental mistakes.

Been at the bird all break for the kids Christmas camp. Took the 8 yr old up to Alta to ski with s friend today and what a difference. It’s skiing so much better. The coverage is much better as well.


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This is one of my favorite sections of Snowbird. Great finish to a top to bottom pow run. I'd been out of town for a few days, saw it was open, and had to ride it. Cirque Traverse is hairy. But it's damn nice to have some terrain open finally, glad they opened stuff up

Crazy that they opened that, the cirque was only open about a third of the way down the traverse on Sat. In fact, a patroller I rode up with told me that he saw someone poaching Mach Schnell and that he would have pulled dude's pass had he been on the ground and not in the tram.

Good lord the mid cirque traverse was BEAT though. Never seen it that bad in my life (snow was great once you got in though!)

^^Ya I wrote that confusingly. That's the lower gully under the tram not off the Cirque.

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Originally Posted by hercule33

I agree. The role of UAC is to state what happened, what mistakes were made and how they can be prevented in the future. In all those regards, the updated report succeeds.

Although I doubt that this will happen, I do wish the guide would have his own write-up as to what happened that could be posted on UAC. It would be really interesting to see what his thought process was and what factors caused him to make some pretty fundamental mistakes.

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Spoke with Tyson a few days ago. Hope I can represent well. Wasn't there, so many grains of salt, please.

Before anything, I'd like to say that shit happens. Especially with human elements involved. Especially in the mountains and rivers.
Every one of us knows this, some more so than others. Tyson has spent a lot of time = risk in the mountains, these later years guiding folks who don't know a lot that we take for granted, kinda. When I was younger I thought I wanted to go down that guiding path. Couldn't do it. Won't start now either.

Tyson told everyone to wait and ski one at a time after he traversed, skied and set the right hand boundary of the slope to be skied, and got out of the way at the bottom. He had two tail guides. Directions weren't followed. There were three people traversing onto the slope before he realized what was happening and yelled at them to stop from the bottom of the slope. They did, and the slope broke.

Things to learn, for sure. Those pesky human factors. Poor slope choice, obviously. No blood no foul on this one luckily with some trees in the run out.

As a patroller and back country rescuer I gave up finding fault with other's actions in the mountains a long time ago. One can never find the balance of blame placing in that fuzzy area between poor choice / and being involved with inherently dangerous activities in objectively hazardous environments. Don't any of you maggots ever grow the couldn't happen to me mindset. Please.

Off the soapbox on this one, happy new year everyone! Hope it starts snowing...

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Originally Posted by telefreewasatch

Spoke with Tyson a few days ago. Hope I can represent well. Wasn't there, so many grains of salt, please.

Before anything, I'd like to say that shit happens. Especially with human elements involved. Especially in the mountains and rivers.
Every one of us knows this, some more so than others. Tyson has spent a lot of time = risk in the mountains, these later years guiding folks who don't know a lot that we take for granted, kinda. When I was younger I thought I wanted to go down that guiding path. Couldn't do it. Won't start now either.

Tyson told everyone to wait and ski one at a time after he traversed, skied and set the right hand boundary of the slope to be skied, and got out of the way at the bottom. He had two tail guides. Directions weren't followed. There were three people traversing onto the slope before he realized what was happening and yelled at them to stop from the bottom of the slope. They did, and the slope broke.

Things to learn, for sure. Those pesky human factors. Poor slope choice, obviously. No blood no foul on this one luckily with some trees in the run out.

As a patroller and back country rescuer I gave up finding fault with other's actions in the mountains a long time ago. One can never find the balance of blame placing in that fuzzy area between poor choice / and being involved with inherently dangerous activities in objectively hazardous environments. Don't any of you maggots ever grow the couldn't happen to me mindset. Please.

Off the soapbox on this one, happy new year everyone! Hope it starts snowing...

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Thank you for the update. As more people get into Backcountry skiing unfortunately this kind of pressure from guests is getting worse, especially when you hire the guide for the day. I have always done multiple day guided trips which allows the guides much more time to assess the groups Backcountry ski level. As an added bonus, on most multi day trips, most of the guests are pretty Backcountry savvy.

That being said I had a guide tell me a few years back that some people inquired about a trip and would only book, "if they were guaranteed to ski gnarly terrain." The guide told them you book elsewhere but it does show you the pressure that is on guides to take clients into riskier situations.



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