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Haven’t read that stuff in skitalk….but I’m loving my Workhorse liners. Didn’t have to remove any cork in Nordica Strider 120s (100m). The leather in the WH is the real deal. So good at holding your foot in with the boots not having to be super cranked.Quote:
Originally Posted by arild
On another note I finally got a heated boot bag. It’s awesome to slip Zipfits into warm shells, racer style at the hill.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arild
Gara HV
Which is the same as the LV,but has more cork added,right?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBC
Correct!Quote:
Originally Posted by arild
In fact, it is my understanding that the Workhorse liner is thinner than the Gara (LV/HV) because it is leather inside and out (not all leather inside like Corsa, but close). Of course, I am referring to the liners sans OMFit, because Zipfit's way of measuring, according to how much OMFit they are stuffing in before shipping them out, makes no sense.
I'm thinking about getting a Workhorse because I think it would be the most optimum fitting liner in their collection for a 96mm shell, as long as one is willing to remove some of the OMFit.
This is true although the leather is thinner than the neoprene, so overall the Workhorse might be slightly less volume than Gara HV but will have the same amount of OMfit, if that makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by arild
Another difference between Corsa and Gara: the sole on the Corsa is much narrower. I went with Corsa for my Lange RS 140 because the sole on the Gara was much wider than the stock liner and I was worried it wouldn’t sit flat in the shell.
The liner hasn’t arrived yet - been on back order for weeks waiting for new production out of Italy, so we’ll see if this was the right choice.
FWIW, the Zipfit fit quiz recommends Corsa for the current Lange RS 140, but Gara LV for the Atomic CS (though there are a few different Club Sports, so not sure I’m choosing the one that was being referenced earlier), even though they’d appear to be in the same class of boots.
Just hit 10 days in said combo liner in a RX130 (MV) and all I can think is wtf have I been doing this whole time? Ski boot bliss.Quote:
Originally Posted by pfluffenmeister
Zipfits after 2 - 3 bakes and about 10 ski days become special.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian.bee
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So I used to have the old red and brown all leather world cups and they were amazing in my technica agent 120’s. They finally died after 12 years of use. I miss that and think I should have gone workhorse.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleBogey
The Gara LV with extra cork in the tongue and the technica mach 1 is just not the same.
Part of it is certainly the shell, it’s just bigger in every way. The agent required multiple rounds of grinds, the Mach 1 didn’t.
Part of it is the leather interior. The heel hold is just far superior.
Two things to add to this Gara / workhorse comparison to hopefully ease my buyers remorse:
1) The workhorse “last” should be wider than the Gara LV? I believe the Gara HV and freeride are both wider than the LV? This isn’t totally clear from any of the marketing material but I believe it’s been discussed and my bootfitter was insistent on this fact.
2) the workhorse has the fluted cuff for bigger lower set calves so is more comfortable but less precise for skinny ankles/high calves?
Regarding your question on last,
I just went to a fresh pair of Gara from the old Gara (leather exterior) with 13 seasons on em. I don't know how my old Garas (which are more similar to the Corsa) compare to the current Gara LV, but my MV Gara toebox is about 5mm wider than my old ones.
I wanted the workhorse materials, but value the taller rigid cuff on the Gara (like the extra support and my calf attachment is quite high), so didn't go for the fluted cuff on my alpine boots.
I have feet that get very low volume (from a height perspective) in the forefoot plus a low instep. The thin forefoot on the zipfit makes me feel like I’m floating in the boot. Anyone else have this issue?
Just wear thick socks?
Wish zipfit made a model with a Ultralon foam toe box rather than the neoprene.
try corking the tongue all the way down to the instep. Kinda sounds like your shell fit is too big, could try to mitigate it with next size up liner or see if you can double footbed.Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKALVS
when zipfits are fit correctly into the correct shell for the user it’s the best thing ever. Chasing size and space problems is difficult especially with the low volume of the neoprene toe box. I feel bad for the guys that are constantly chasing problems. My three pairs of boots and 3 sets of liners takes less then two hours total.
MO - makes sense and I went with the LV for both of those reasons which seem justified.
I’ve since heard you can order all leather Gara LV from zipfit (it’s not on their website)…THAT would be sweet.
TAF - I have the exact same issue. Low instep, long, narrow, big heel spurs.
1) you can try and solve it with adding extra cork material in the tongue, it goes pretty low down.
2) the only way I’ve reliably solved this is with a) shimming the boot board - particularly annoying with zips since they’re in and out every time and usually you have to re-set the shim every time. b) glue on additional high density foam material (someone here knows the actual name) above your forefoot. My bootfitter did this on my intuitions. Basically cut a half moon type shape that goes from the top of your toes back to almost where the tongue starts (like if you cut the front 3rd off an insole and stuck it to the top of your boot). I haven’t yet had the courage to do this to my zips.
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I’m in a 10.5 street shoe and a 26.5 Lange Rx/Shadow/XT3.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoVT Joey
Another shell size down and I’ll need to have my toes removed.
Overall it seems Lange is adding more and more interior height to their last. I’ve been in the RS/RX for the last 12 years, and my OG RX had significantly less instep and toe box height.
Maybe the better question I should be asking is what boot has the lowest height instep and toe box height.
Bontex shim to lift foot in the shell?
you can use 2 small drops of super glue to take it to the Zappa but still have it easily removable if it really helps and you don’t want it sliding around in the shell
edit to add. I have a very tall instep, historically anlways skied with first annd second buckles flapping in the breeze, and the current gen Lange molds are the only boots I’ve ever had to add tension to the first and second buckles.
Has this been verified? That would change everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by enginerd
For those with low volume forefoot:
Shim the bootboard. Take the bootboard out, cut a shim to match, duct tape shin to board and wrap the tape around the edge of the board. Zero chance of the liner messing with it. If you can’t take out your bootboard, put the shims inside your liner.
Also, cork to the bottom of the tongue and then do your boots up from the top down to prevent the cork from being pushed up.
The biggest problem I have with bontex shims is it then pushes me up higher in to heel pocket, which makes the rest of the boot fit get screwy around the ankle and elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal Olson
I used to have a narrow foot that would fit in to a plug with little trouble. As I’ve aged my arches have flattened out making my foot fairly wide relative to what it was but also very low height.
Add in big calves and ankles, it makes boot fitting very frustrating.
I’m literally open to trying any boot at this point. Maybe a Dalbello or Scarpa?
Do you have a proper footbed? Support the arch and get your fit back.Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKALVS
So what are the pros and cons of zipfits vs foam liners like Sidas or Boot Doc? Seems like pros of Zipfits are you aren't reliant on having a highly skilled bootfitter to inject the liner, and it isn't a "one and done" that can get messed up with injection, it can be used in different shells if you change boots. Is one style warmer than the other? Other pros to injected foam liners?
I've finally done it. Achieved zipfit fitting nirvana.
8 tubes of cork each liner, 6 in the tongues, one each side over malleolus, rearwards to achilles. Now like perfectly fitting, actually super nice and warm vices. Corsas in raptors.
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Isn't it lovely?Quote:
Originally Posted by arild
I've skied 22 days in the last 35 and feet have never been happier!
Skiing tightness all day long!
PS The R120ST kills it!
There are no con’s. They’re the best liner you can buy and it’s not even close. Outlast everything you mentioned, the fit is always adjusting, you can always adjust them. Add cork, take cork out etc… They’ll outlast half dozen pairs on intuitions.Quote:
Originally Posted by wilcox510
It took me a short while to get there but once I did, nirvana was achieved My right foot was dialed pretty much immediately. My left foot, however, is slightly lower volume. I messed with it for a while, added cork, moved some around, and I remember getting off the chair and I didn’t have to shove my heel back and thought, there it is, this is what everyone talks about. BlissQuote:
Originally Posted by arild
YES!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by arild
Foam CAN ski amazing. But results are highly constrained by the fitter, them delivering exactly what you want, and factors that are often times outside the fitter's ability to control. I am batting 1 for 2 in good foams myself (both done by extremely skilled fitters). Also, foam liners don't really go from shell to shell (if you switch brand or change from one model to another). Like really at all in my experience. Foam liner toeboxes that I have seen are all very narrow too.Quote:
Originally Posted by wilcox510
I probably got 250-300 (4 or 5 seasons) days out of a Surefoot liner before it was broken down to the point of being painful and I was over buckling all over. I am at 13 seasons on a pair of zips (at least 600 or 700 days), and while I just molded a fresh pair, it was mainly because I was in an LV and wanted to start fresh with an MV and not shoot a bajillion tubes in. So laziness not necessity.
Warmer and not warmer (IMO) is about blood flow in your foot alot more than its about insulation. Ski boots with liners are inherently warm, unless you have nerve or bloodflow challenges, and if so, just add batteries!
Like Marshal said, often times people that say they get cold toes in Zipfit have their buckles too tight because that’s what they’re used to in a standard liner. The nice thing about Zips is you don’t have crank your buckles down if your fit is right which makes them extremely comfortable.
How long are folks finding it takes to break in the synthetic material of the exterior on the current gara? The material is so rigid comparatively. Having a little buyers remorse for not going with the workhorse. :/
What do you mean by break in? I’m not sure it’s going to mold very well.
Attachment 489679
20-30 days. That crease in the lower heel is from traveling.
It took me about 10 days and 2 bakes to fully adjust to the Gara HV. Then another 5 days to realize I needed one more tube of cork in the ankle pockets of one boot, and then just one more day to realize that I also need more cork in the tongue of that boot.
So I’d say 15-20 days to reach boot nirvana, although that was my first ever ZipFit experience and I think it would have been quicker if I was coming from older zips
(very mild) Buyers remorse confirmed, but that's OK, I'll get over it as soon as I go skiing this afternoon, lol!
Anyone think you can get a work horse in a 96mm shell with 5mm 10mm shell fit?
Probably have to remove cork
Arild, did you have any issues with pressure on the bump on top of your foot above your arch (medial cuneiform, I believe)?Quote:
Originally Posted by arild
Got my new Corsas and and the seam on the liner goes right over that bump, and the edge of the tongue cut-out is right above it as well. Basically everything comes together at the worst spot possible.
Switching out the Zipfit tongue for the tongue from the stock Lange RS 140 liner is much better right now since it has rigid plastic across that whole area which protects the bone from pressure cause by the liner seam.
Not sure it’s a problem some cork is going to solve, but this is my first experience with Zipfits so could be wrong.
Hey Mark,Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong
I did have issues, but mostly because the soft neoprene in the "window" tends to jam in the beartrap. Can't for the life of me grasp why zipfit's tongues are as narrow as they are (and they tend to fold inwards if you're not a total nazi about it when heat cycling them), nor why that window over the instep needs to be there.
Now, this is a thirty seconds annoyance present only when entering the boots, at least to me,but I totally get the why of switching to another tongue, if only just for the sake of them being whole plastic. Was just looking at ordering some LV tongues from Atomic, seeing as they are super affordable, but then I suddenly got the fit I wanted from the cork, and abandoned the idea.
Hope you're doing well!
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My garas broke in quickly. A few days. I’m pretty sure I skied two days of lift served and then tossed them in my touring boots for two quick short bc hikes. And after that they were like a different machine. I did find that my cork had migrated after hiking with them and it took an hour or so back in my alpine shells and they were molded back to normal. The gara is by far my favorite liner. The corsa 92 is great and all but the leather inside is a pain in the ass, and gets noticeably more moisture in it because it doesn’t wick. I guess I’m an outlier but I wouldn’t trade a gara for a workhorse. I’ll take the stiffer taller liner any day of the week over a leather finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal Olson
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by arild
Will likely just start with the Lange tongue and stick with it unless it gives me problems - one of which could be that the Velcro is reversed between the Lange and Zipfit ones, may need to do something with that.
Might as well do that. One option, though slightly bulky,perhaps (depends if you have three mm of vertical room in your toe box), is to use adhesive velcro, reversed, so you can attach the lange tongues. Either that, or get your sewing kit out.Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong
Now, I have skied the corsas with the raptor tongues (almost identical to the Lange ones), and once you're actually wearing the boots, any slippage seems negligible. Best of luck!
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That cutout on tongue is in the most perfect spot for me. Keeps that hard plastic off of a pressure point, everyone is different.