Except when they are traveling aboard. Then they are 1/10 ideologic, 1/10 pragmatic, 6/10 speedo, and 3/10 loud.Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
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Except when they are traveling aboard. Then they are 1/10 ideologic, 1/10 pragmatic, 6/10 speedo, and 3/10 loud.Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
Stop with all the name calling and knock the prick out of the park. Call him a 'Camel Jockey'.Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
Israel was founded on the back of terrorism and to say that they have never attacked anyone is untrue.
Between 1954 and 1955, under Moshe Sharett as prime minister, the Lavon Affair, a failed attempt to bomb targets in Egypt, caused political disgrace in Israel. Compounding this, in 1956, Egypt nationalized the Suez Canal, much to the chagrin of the United Kingdom and France. Following this and a series of Fedayeen attacks, Israel created a secret military alliance with those two European powers and declared war on Egypt. After the Suez Crisis, the three collaborators faced international condemnation, and Israel was forced to withdraw its forces from the Sinai Peninsula.
Why does Germany have to pay Jewish people for lost property and Israel doesnt have to Pay the Palestinians nothing? There is a double standard here, the Palestinian people are still feeling the effects of the WW2 aftermath to this day. The west bank settlments built in the middle of it need to be removed. There will never be peace with citiy states inside a state.
In a word, no. But I think that may be where we are headed. The country best server by all this is Iran. They want the world's attention off of their nuclear program. It makes no difference wether or not they actually are trying to develope a nuclear weapon. They have choosen to make this a matter of national pride and the further along they are, the better. At least in their eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by splat
I think, regardless of what happens in the next year, we will look back on this and be able to point to the US invasion of Iraq as the catalyst that started whatever this turns into.
I really dont see how anti-zionism = anti-semitism.
The jewish people and the country of israel are not one and the same.
My take: Israel certainly has the right to defend itself just like any ofther country, but I dont think its taking a very productive approach to doing so. Bombing civilian infrastucture is just wrong for this situation. If anything, terroist groups thrive on areas with weak or missing infrastructure. Plus, I think it was just plain stupid to launch a mini invasion over a few kidnapped soldiers. Did it ever occur to them that this is exactly what hezbollah wants (to start conflict)?
There was a peace plan in place. It was violated, for reasons other than the US in Iraq.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeatPuppet
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Originally Posted by fattwins
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but the simple fact is; shit rolls down hill.
If you want to make things better, you have to assess the situation today, right now, and decide what needs to be done. Anything else perpetuated the problem rather than solves it.
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Originally Posted by nealric
That's because you don't understand how highly the Israeli soldier is esteemed in their society. Everybody has to serve. It is not an option. Israel will move heaven and earth to take care of it's own.
On another note, in the past Israel has swapped prisoners for captured soldiers. This has happened several times. So, the invasion is something new, and something Hezbollah might not have counted on...but Iran might have after seeing the Israeli response in Gaza. There is a lot of gamesmanship going on here.
Just heard a former Mid East peace negotiator say on a news show that this might have been a move by Israel to draw Iran into the fray and destroy them before they get a nuke built - since Iran has said there's only one place they want to nuke.
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Originally Posted by splat
Osirak, on a grand scale.
Yeah, I heard Israel paid off the Hez to bomb them as a smokescreen.Quote:
Originally Posted by splat
They're sending in the little green men from Roswell and the shooter from the grassy knoll to sabotage Irans plutonium stores.
HOw about the million or so Jews who where expelled from Arab countries? Where is their compensation? Lets keep in mind what Germany did to the Jews, Communists, Gays and Gypies. They set up a institution to exterminate them. They threw them in fuckin ovens and showers with Cyclon B to kill them like pests. The Germans should pay for the rest of their fucking lives!Quote:
Originally Posted by fattwins
The Palestinians had a chance to live side by side with the Israelis in 1948, but chose to side with the the 6 or 7 invading armies that tried to push israel into the sea.
As I said in an earlier post, Israel will put a world of hurt on Lebanon. Never again will Jews have to worry about being herded in to a ghetto. Never again!
I am losing the urge to ever post in this place again because of the blattent anti semitism that is rearing its ugly head here
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Originally Posted by skideeppow
My my, think we could tone down the rhetoric a bit? I think more people would take you seriously if you didn't deal in such emotional terms.
I'm still waiting on the 40 acres and a mule... or I'll take some reparations in cash... but I'm not holding my breath.Quote:
Originally Posted by skideeppow
Those who were not directly involved don't agree about the paying up part. Even if the argument can be made that they are directly benefiting from a past injustice.
Point taken, but i can not believe the garbage I read here. Hezbullah and Hamas are intent on the total destruction of the state of Israel. After unilateral withdrawl from Lebanon and Gaza, they are still being attacked from these areas. Why? Because they want Israel in the Med.Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskisquaw
Israel is a disaster. The Jews would be better off in Cuba. Castros been in power since about 1959. He's due to fall over and die. Camels don't float.Quote:
Originally Posted by skideeppow
Seriously though. Everyone is aware of the conundrum that is Israel. It shouldn't be there, but it is, and leaving is an even worse mistake. It's kinda like the US in Iraq. Agree with it or not, we need to stay, fight, and destroy. Leaving would be a mistake of epic consequences. Call that anti-semitism or whatever, the rest of the world calls it reality.
I am not agreeing with war reparations 50 years later, but to say that Israel owes the Palestinians compensation is crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by bklyntrayc
How many white people do you know with the last name of Washington or Jefferson, or Jackson? The people you do know with those names have more money than I. I haven't inherited shit, and I'm about as responsible for you reparations as you are for mine being that I'm Irish. Hook me up, and I'll throw some at the native americans. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by bklyntrayc
Have you looked in the mirror for the source of that type of hate?Quote:
Originally Posted by skideeppow
Were you even a glimmer in someone's eye at that time? Will making grandchildren pay right the wrong now when it never has in the past?Quote:
Originally Posted by skideeppow
You can argue the scale of the slaughter, or if there was one, or if 10s, 100s, or if it was the scale of the Shoah were millions of people died. Go ahead, eliminate humanity and treat humans as numbers like the monsters did. Wrong millions to right your own past and see what happens - never ending war, as you've gotten.
Are you a denier? YOU ask if there was a slaughter? What does that mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
I might have been speaking out of place when I said they should pay for the rest of their lives, but I was speaking in the context when someone said that the Palestinians are entittled to reparations from Israel. The Shoah and the occupation are two totally different situations.
Please consider that there are maggots of Jewish heritage here who had grandparents who died or were killed in Nazi concentration camps, so it is an emotional issue their families have discussed their entire lifetimes. Two to three generations is not so long ago. I'm not talking reparations. Now they have Islamic states proclaiming intentions to destroy their race within the same century. This is an emotional issue for them...
Having toured Auschwitz and seen how the Nazis basically made an industry of killing people and recycling their gold fillings for money, using the hair they cut off prisoners as insulation in the army's winter uniforms, and selling their ashes for fertilizer, while housing them like cordwood in horse stables for slave labor to make bullets and artillery shells until they were too ill to be productive and were killed or just dropped dead, I have a better understanding of the Jewish fury when it comes to self defense, whether reactively or pre-emptively.
That said, this is an interesting debate on a current issue with intense possible ramifications for the whole world. Let's not denigrate the discussion with overreactions, prejudicial or emotional, by becoming that mirror image of the world's hostilities. Sometimes I wonder if humans will ever be capable of living in peace without being totally controlled by repressive governments. That's a sad thought.
For anyone interested, a cliff notes synopsis on the history of Palestine:
The State of Israel
Since biblical times—but especially since the beginning of the mid-nineteenth century—Jews have longed for a permanent home in the Holy Land, a stretch of rugged, but historically significant land on the eastern Mediterranean shore, stretching north from the Gulf of Aqaba over the Negev Desert, west of the Dead Sea and Jordan, and north to the borders of Syria and Lebanon.
The early name for this area of land was Palestine, first settled by agricultural people around 8000 B.C. Hebrew tribes began populating the land in the twelfth century B.C., and eventually it was ruled by Saul, David, and Solomon around 1000 B.C. The kingdom later split into two states, Israel and Judah, which were, in turn, conquered by the Assyrians and the Babylonians. Afterward, the area was ruled by foreign powers—the Persians, Alexander the Great, and the Ptolemies, among others.
Romans took possession of the country in 63 B.C. and stationed Herod the Great on the throne in 37 B.C. Jesus was born into this Roman-ruled, Jewish world which would, after his crucifixion become a Christian nation. Some 500 years later, Arabs took possession, and it became an Islamic nation; by the tenth century A.D., most of the inhabitants had converted to Islam. In 1099, Western crusaders established rule, but they were eventually routed by armies of the Egyptian sultans, the Mamelukes. In 1516, the country became part of the mighty Ottoman Empire.
The influx of European Jews into the area began in the mid- to late-nineteenth century. Jews living in Europe, especially those in Poland and Russia, fled from Cossack butchery and Russian pogroms, or massacres, and began immigrating into this part of the Ottoman Empire, where they established primitive farming communities. United by a common religion and the Hebrew language, they were fervent in their belief—despite having to live in crude huts and tents, exposed to the continual menace of malaria, and resented by their unfriendly Palestinian neighbors—that they had returned to a land that had, since biblical times, been divinely promised to them as a national home.
At the beginning of World War I, Great Britain inflamed the passion for a Jewish homeland on an international level by issuing the Balfour Declaration, promising a home for the Jewish people within Palestine. The war ended in 1918 and Great Britain supplanted the crumbling Turkish influence; Palestine was now in the hands of the British. The League of Nations further sanctioned the role of Great Britain in creating a Jewish state.
The plan for a Jewish homeland began to founder as Arabs realized that Zionism had spurred an immense, unprecedented immigration of Jews who suddenly destabilized a centuries-old Arab milieu. The newcomers' land-grabbing, communal living, and insistence on gender equality angered and appalled the native Palestinians, and outbreaks of hostility soon led to bloody confrontations.
Ever greater waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine resulted from the growth of Nazi hate groups in Germany and its fascist satellites during the 1930s. In 1935, for example, over 61,000 European Jews felt so threatened that they left their homes, jobs, and families and immigrated to Palestine. From 1936-39, Palestinians erupted in a series of riots, trying to force Britain out of power to save what they considered their ancestral land from the mounting tide of Zionists.
The world's reaction to the execution of six million Jews during the Holocaust forced the matter of a Jewish homeland onto the agenda of the fledgling United Nations. On November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly approved a partition of lands, dividing Palestine into an Arab state and a Jewish state. On May 13, 1948, British peacekeepers relinquished their control.
The next day, Jewish Zionists proclaimed Israel a sovereign state, with David Ben-Gurion as leader. A day later, Jordanian and Egyptian forces invaded the new nation and initiated a bloody era of terrorism, open warfare, and usurpation. During the first year of the new Jewish state, over 6,000 Jews were killed. By this time, however, Israel was now a militarily strong and victorious nation. It had increased its original territory by fifty percent and had reclaimed Jerusalem, a city held sacred by Jews, Muslims, and Christians.
During the following years, the displacement of Arab refugees after they had lost their lands to Israel in military upheavals kept the area in a perpetual state of unrest, including the war for control of the Suez Canal in 1956, the Six-Day War in 1967 (which increased Israel's territory two hundred percent), the assassination of Israeli athletes at the Olympic Games in 1972, and the Yom Kippur War in 1973.
A respite from continuous war between Israel and its neighbors took place in 1979 at Camp David, Maryland. During a meeting brokered by U.S. president Carter, President Sadat of Egypt met with Israel's Prime Minister Begin, and both men signed the first peace treaty between Israel and one of its Arab neighbors. Israel agreed to return the oil-rich fields of the Sinai to Egypt, and, in return, Egypt, a powerful Arab state, officially recognized Israel as a state. In addition, Israel also agreed to work for peace, including an eventual plan for Palestinian autonomy.
War broke out again in 1982 when PLO guerrillas in southern Lebanon began mounting raids into Israel. In retaliation, Israel bombed Beirut for nearly two months and successfully routed Yasir Arafat and his army from the country.
Eleven years later, in September 1993, despite strained relations, Yasir Arafat, leader of the Palestine Liberation Organization, Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin, and Israeli foreign minister Shimon Peres signed an accord in Washington, D.C., stating that Israel and the PLO recognized each other's right to exist. The PLO promised to abandon its terroristic holy war against Israel, and Israel, in turn, granted self-rule to the Palestinian entities of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Rabin, Peres, and Arafat later shared the 1994 Nobel Peace Prize.
Today's Israel, about the size of Massachusetts, is a highly urbanized nation, peerlessly democratic in its social laws, and in an area of the world where religious wars are commonplace, freedom of religion is guaranteed by law to Muslims and Christians living in the country. In addition, Israel has become one of the world's most envied nations in providing educational and health care services to its people. In terms of its economy, the nation is heavily dependent on oil for its energy, and thus it is a major Mediterranean ally in the U.S. struggle to protect the oil fields that fuel the world's industrial growth of the latter half of the twentieth century.
Are you a fucking Palestinian? Do you have some difficulty with reading which requires indignant hyperbole like they do? I said:Quote:
Originally Posted by skideeppow
that ain't no denial dipshit. Take your racist conspiracy chip and throw it in the shitter.Quote:
or if it was the scale of the Shoah were millions of people died.
Live in the past if you think it will make your future better - I don't see that happening. You can be "right" or have peace. All you morons want is to be right. So have your shithole - you fuckwits deserve it.
I am amazed at how many people have responded, and am far to lazy to read through all the previous threads. But, it is my opinion that it is absurd to think that the US will become seriously involved more then sending additional aid and weapons. My history may be a little shakey, especially wriht now, but wasnt there a time when all the countries around Israel attached it at once? Like, all out attack? If that didnt drag the US into a shooting war, then this will not.
You mean the 1973 war? When US & Russian threats of escalation to full on nuclear war enforced the cease fire?Quote:
Originally Posted by mc_roon
Well... skideep got my point, (good luck on getting back your due, even if it was promised or legislated) but since you asked...Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
When Messrs. Washington, Jefferson & Jackson have 4-6 kids with their wives and 25 others with different slaves on the plantation that name is sure to live on in at least one population. :rolleyes:
Sometimes you young folks are so ignorant of your own history, it's painful to watch.
http://www.irishecho.com/newspaper/story.cfm?id=17800
And you can give me that double native kickback also, from North and South America. Should I tell you to get the fuck out of my hemisphere now? Nah, I'm too nice.Quote:
Irish Americans and African Americans have had, to put things mildly, a difficult history. Though closely intertwined from their earliest days in the United States, the two ethnicities have rarely enjoyed an uncomplicated association.
The first wave of large-scale Irish immigration to the New World was not that of the famine era; it came, instead, in the shape of an earlier generation of predominantly Northern Protestants whose successors have tended to identify themselves as Scots-Irish or Ulster-Scots rather than Irish-American. Their values provided the bedrock for what would become derisively known as the "redneck culture" of the American South.
Some have contended that the redneck caricature is unfair and does no justice to the more admirable traits that the Scots-Irish imported. This argument that was advanced most strongly by novelist, former member of the Reagan administration and recently announced Senate candidate James Webb in his 2003 book "Born Fighting: How The Scots-Irish Shaped America."
The significant Irish population in the Southern states of the U.S. was reflected in the fact that a substantial number of slave owners were Irish. Many African-Americans to this day remain reluctant to claim any Irish heritage even if they have archetypal Irish surnames because those names are often considered to be tainted by the association with slavery.
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