They are discounting it saying it rarely happens.
Sounds like they do not want to fix the issue.
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They are discounting it saying it rarely happens.
Sounds like they do not want to fix the issue.
I agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by doebedoe
How is the pin width set in the toe?
Glad to hear it's snowing somewhere! **sigh** .... Anyway, I do appreciate your testing (and all of your reviews - fo real). I mostly questioned whether this is something we will see on a regular basis during real-world, regular use. I've only heard/seen of one occurrence of the toe-gina in real-world use, but your test shows it could happen more frequently. Let's see if it turns out to be a continued problem under actual use.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
yah i was being tongue in cheek. Use cases where this can happen is a forward fall with toe-locked outQuote:
Originally Posted by meter-man
- those who ski downhill with toe locked (not recommended but it will happen)
- ramming tip into snow on a kickturn
- ramming tip into snow scootching downhill with or without skins on
I can think of more. You're probably right that it's rare but I can see it happening
I personally Fritschi's "don't fall like that" response annoying. Just because I have 6 year old boots and don't really give af about how they look doesn't mean that others who have new boots who might get toe-punched shouldn't be concerned. I also spoke to two shops in Whistler and they hadn't been given any headsup by Fritschi. That's pretty disrespectful to frontline staff imo.
Anyhow; all my Vipec black toes and spare parts are in the city so it'll be a while till i can check. Went into the store to see what other boots are vulnerable to the same issue. I couldn't find a boot that wouldn't be compromised. So far I've checked
- Scarpa Maestrale RS
- Scarpa F1
- Scarpa Freedom
- Dynafit Vulcan
- Dynafit Beast
- BD Quadrant
- Scott Cosmos
- Atomic Hawx
- Salomon QST
- Salomon Mtn Lab
- Dalbello Lupo
From what i have seen lee has a lot of Toe issues ...just sayin
Fritchi bunion punch
You should listen to the Blister gear podcast where they talk about that. The advancement of CF reinforced polymer technology made it possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyb
But the answer of "you shouldn't fall like that" is not just a lame answer but a BS answer. Because the binding damages other product when you are using it as directed by the manufacture in a common enough use case scenario that seems like that opens them up to some legal liability. Almost seems like you'd get a better product with an older toe and the Tecton heel.
FFS and that's probably the boot they were using as their CAD model template (it's the one in all the CAD videos) considering their ties with Black Diamond.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
Thanks for all the info and follow up, especially LeeLau. Would it be a decent work around for now to simply always have the binding in "ski" mode, unless you are skinning someplace with really high consequence?
Will the toe release easier in a straight line pressure situation, and also hold you in well enough to not pop off when not desired?
Lee - are you willing to sacrifice your other boot to find out?!
Seems like an appropriate solution to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl
Perhaps the "deal with it" response is a temporary one. Once more pressure is put on by consumers, testers, shops, etc. I can't imagine it will continue to fly. The litigation culture is to blame and/or thank.
Ever slipped out on the skin track? Am I the only one that happens to? One step without good purchase could produce this outcome yes? And both of my boots are on the list. What’s the argument against vipec black toe and tecton heel?
Sounds just fine to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by SupreChicken
for those keeping score-
Bench tested the Scarpa Maestrale RS (314 bsl)
mounted the Tecton to a 2x4
boot at the forward limit in Walk mode-
Attachment 219535
with foot in boot, additional forward pressure was slowly applied against the toe bump. immediately noticed toe box deflection. kept applying forward pressure to the point at which toes were being smashed from the deflection and felt as if the bump was about to pierce the the shell. then backed off. drink-napkin calculations estimated the torque at < 80 N-m (low, relative to DIN 8.5 release torque 270-380 N-m).
didn't get a photo of max toe box deflection (not willing to repeat the test to capture one).
however, toe box did deform somewhat-
Attachment 219534
After tonight's experience and speaking as one who on occasion slips on the skin track, think I'll forgo the Tecton this season.
beta testers, best of luck.
Fritschi, fix this shit.
Thanks for your efforts LeeL and all the beta folks.
Interesting thread.
Particularly interesting to see that I can deform my boot if I fall forward in walk mode. Something I almost never do. I can't remember the last time I did that
I completely realise these clamps aren't perfect yet, but I have skied mine inbounds for ten days now, even with the potential of deforming my boots, if i'm very unlucky and fuck up in ways I don't usually do.. there is no way I'm swapping out these bindings now. In fact, I'm planing on mounting a second pair in a few weeks.
They just ski soo much better than anything I have skied from Dynafit (I have not skied the beat bindings)
If you care about how your setup skis, this is still the binding you want, IMHO.
Fritschi havs some great product design, but everything else is shit.
Was intrigued by the Evo but gonna hold off buying till this issue is sorted.
It's not an uncommon experience for me to be pitched forward during tricky uphill skinning, falling on face with a catapult effect through the added acceleration force of a heavy pack.
Usually happens while rest stepping up steep dust on crust or dusty facetted snow on crust that's just a bit too deep for ski crampons to bite in terrain that doesn't allow lower angle routes through technical terrain. We get those conditions frequently around here, especially on valley bottom and mid elevation approaches through the jungle on bigger exploration days.
Can't risk denting my boots...holding off for Evo toe2.0.
(Edited)
Okay, I was going by memory earlier, just took a close look at the toes.
Well.....the toes are INTENTIONALLY designed to not release in a knee fall when in walk mode. Doesn't matter if the hump is ground down or built up with JB Weld, it just isn't going to happen.
In ski mode, the hump acts as a wedge between the boot and the toe lever, and slides against the toe lever while pushing it down. (The location of the wedge pivot is odd, as the wedge has the most leverage against the lever right at the beginning of the travel, and very little leverage at the end of the travel - when the load is highest. I don't understand why the engineer positioned the wedge pivot where it is.)
In walk mode, the hump wedge (which has a hollow area on the underside) swings forward and captures a raised area on the toe lever, physically locking the lever in place. The harder the boot pushes on the hump, the more the toe lever is locked in the upright walk position. In the walk position, the rear corners of the lever (kind of like wings) drop into spaces in front of the sliding pin carriage, locking it in place horizontally. So in walk mode, there is no toe release in any direction, at least not without a whole lot of force.
If the hump were ground down to get a few more degrees of boot clearance in walk mode, it's possible (depending on boot toe shape) that the knee could hit the ski before the boot toe is crushed by the hump in a knee fall. Hard to say without trying it. The downside to doing this, is the angle of the boot at the point of toe release (in ski mode) would be changed by the same number of degrees of clearance you gained grinding for walk mode.
Question is, at what point (in ski mode) should the toe pins release in a forward fall, after a vertical release at the heel? If folks grind down the hump, would they be okay with toe pin release not occurring until their knee is almost to the ski? What happens if the ski is rotated at the toe while the boot sole is perpendicular to the ski, will it twist out like a traditional tech binding, even though that's not how the Vipec toe is designed to work?
Or do the toe pins have enough tension that skinning in ski mode wouldn't be a problem? Ions seem to skin just fine in ski mode, wonder about the Evo/Tecton.
Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't sure initially what you meant. Agreed that the toe lever is designed to NOT release in a knee fall.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1000-oaks
BTW did try putting some lube in the cam mechanism but it doesn't affect the toe release- for the reasons you mentioned above
I'm going to side-by-side the Black (2016-7) toes and the different mount pieces Fritschi supplied for those toes to compare their heights with the height of this years Evo and Tecton toes. It seems to me that whatever the height was for the black toes worked FOR ME the last 3 years I've been skiing Tectons so I'll go with what works.
As to the last question. There is a "decent" amount of toe pin tension but I kick the toes off if cutting a skintrack in hard snow or kick turning. But then I do that with Ions too. So it is one solution but IMO not an ideal solution.
Fritschi must have received complaints about Vipec toes bumping into ski mode (or releasing) during kick turns, so they locked out boot-initiated mode changes from the walk setting. Gotta be the reason.
Yup, just look at the debate over high risers in the Salomon Shift thread and it becomes clear that preferences are all over the map when it comes to this stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1000-oaks
... Thom
Wonder how hard it is to remove and reinstall the hump? Maybe filling the pocket under the hump with JB Weld or epoxy could enable forward release in walk mode while retaining horizontal lockout. That would put the hump closer to the boot in walk mode than ski mode though (just like the Black toe), ideally it would be the other way around.
If Fritschi wanted to retrofit the design, they could make a new lever that's similar to the Black lever, and eliminate the pivoting/locking hump. One new piece of plastic, which could possibly be installed by dealers. (I didn't look to see if the lever axle has flared ends or not. No idea if it can be pressed out, or has to be drilled out.)
Very basic field testing today makes me believe my kingpins would do the same thing. Maybe not as bad, but would deform the toe.
Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
I've taken a knee fall with kingpins without denting boots
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using TGR Forums mobile app
Yeah no ptoblem with kingpin and maestrale rs. I still want tectons but will probably wait till next year when they resolve this and any heel piece problems that arise
Sent from my VS987 using TGR Forums mobile app
I'm surprised nobody broke heel piece yet. Ain't nobody doing drops with them? I remember several issues with Vipec plastic durability. Well, even metal heels sometimes brake and this one is almost completely plastic
Not saying that it can't happen, but remember, most pin heels (with a few exceptions like ATK), support the boot heel via the pins. The boot heel on the Tecton sits on, and is supported by the brake assembly.Quote:
Originally Posted by HukuTa_KydecHuk
... Thom
First day on Tectons, all inbounds, and I am really impressed with this binding. Night and day difference coming from shimmed LT Verticals. I skied some pretty firm refrozen late in the day and frankly, I didn't notice any real difference from my alpine setup.
I could see people using this as a quiver killer binding, but durability would be my main concern. The alpine heel makes all the difference in feel for a pin binding. Step in is way easier as well.
Looking forward to getting some touring time on them, just need a few feet of snow.
Have you skied the Vipec? Most of the alpine feel probably comes from Fritschi heels being laterally rigid, so there's no give when loading the tail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada29er
Fritschi Tecton/EVO Toe issue
I am reposting here so this is all in one post so others can share this Public Service Announcement. My review is still in progress but in my opinion the issue is serious enough that all potential buyers and users of the 2017-8 Fritschi Vipec/Evo should be aware. This issue potentially affects Fritschi Vipec and Tecton toes.
Use this link to share it. https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...82#post5205182
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...b9&oe=5AD3A6F2
This is a picture of a boot dent caused when the person was skinning with the Tecton toe locked out and fell forward on to their knees. Their Salomon Mtn Lab boot toe was dented by the Tecton toe lever bump
https://scontent.fyvr3-1.fna.fbcdn.n...a4&oe=5AFA96D1
I duplicated this issue by coasting downhill with heel free and toe lever locked out then ramming ski tip into sastrugi. The toe did NOT release. Aftereffect on boot is pictured. My Tectons are set at DIN 8
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...43&oe=5ABF80EE
You can see this is a design issue as the contact point on the Tecton toe lever is as pictured below. In a forward fall on your knees (sometimes referred to as a knee fall) when the toe lever is locked out and the user falls straight ahead the boot will not release and the contact bump point will dent the boot.
To summarize, you have to fall directly on your knees while your toe is locked out for this boot failure to happen. The fall must be with substantial impact (a person's body weight will accomplish this). If you have ever fallen forward on your knees while your toe lever is locked out your boot is vulnerable.
Fritschi's response to this issue is here http://blistergearreview.com/gear-re...hi-tecton-12/3. It can be boiled down to - "Don't fall on your knees while your toe lever is locked out." Also, "if you're in a situation where you might have a knee fall put your toe lever into ski mode".
I don't feel that this is a satisfactory response. Use cases where knee-falls can happen may be rare but they will occur. Examples below all of which can result in a dented and/or damaged boot
- those who ski downhill with toe locked (not recommended but it will happen)
- running tip into snow on a kickturn
- running tip into snow scootching downhill with or without skins on
- knee fall while skinning on an icy uphill
I can think of more examples and I'm sure others can as well
I thought about the reasons for the Tecton/Evo toe lever bump. One reason is to allow release in a knee fall when the toe lever is in ski mode; the boot will contact the bump and the boot will eject from the binding. However note that this would not occur when the toe lever is raised. It's almost impossible to eject from the toe when the lever is locked out. This is by design and described by 1000-oaks as follows
It's worthwhile noting that toe lever lockout is the same for Tecton/EVO as for Dynafit/G3/Marker toes; ie that locking out the toe lever makes it very hard to release from the toe. It is not the same as for Fritschi Vipec Black toes where there was an intermediate lockout position then a fully raised lockout position. For Vipec Black toes both positions raised the amount of toe pincer-boot retention but still allowed for release when the Vipec Black toe lever was raised
I checked the following boots to see if they are affected. All these boots would also be affected by the Vipec/Evo toe design
I couldn't find a boot that wouldn't be compromised. So far I've checked
- Scarpa Maestrale RS
- Scarpa F1
- Scarpa Freedom
- Dynafit Vulcan/Mercury
- Dynafit Beast
- BD Quadrant
- Scott Cosmos
- Atomic Hawx
- Salomon QST
- Salomon Mtn Lab
- Dalbello Lupo
Fritschi Tecton/EVO Toe surgery
At the outset I do not recommend doing this. There is a release benefit to the toe bump on the Fritschi Tecton/EVO lever by design. Having inspected other bindings I've used (Dynafit Comforts/Verticals, G3 Ions, Marker Kingpins) which do not have this release benefit, I am willing to experiment. Not everyone might want to do so.
https://scontent.fyvr3-1.fna.fbcdn.n...b5&oe=5ABD5862
Some measurements; Tecton/Evo toe - baseplate to toe bump height 48mm. Vipec Black toe - baseplate to toe bump height 45mm.Tecton/Evo Toe - Baseplate to toe height (after bump removal 40mm
https://scontent.fyvr3-1.fna.fbcdn.n...23&oe=5AB996C9
Vipec Black toe with toe lever fully raised. There are three modes; ski, intermediate and walk (fully raised)
https://scontent.fyvr3-1.fna.fbcdn.n...8a&oe=5ACAE2ED
Dynafit Comfort toe with toe lever raised. The toe lever would not come into play since knee would contact ground before the boot toe would contact the lever (picture below)
https://scontent.fyvr3-1.fna.fbcdn.n...12&oe=5AC71EE4
Tecton toe surgery . Step 1
There is a press-fit pin holding the bump on the toe lever.
Punch out the pin using a small carpenters nail. Be CAREFUL of the toe lever as it is cammed and if it snaps shut while your finger is near it's going to hurt.
A prudent person will ziptie the toelever down and protect one's kitchen quartz countertops before punching.
https://scontent.fyvr3-1.fna.fbcdn.n...44&oe=5AF81B27
Tecton toe surgery . Step 2
Press-fit pin holding the toe lever bump partially punched out. There is a knurled piece of the pressfit pin holding it in the plastic of the toe lever. Punch from the left side of the toe lever to start the process.
Use tweezers to remove the pressfit pin
Punch out the pin using a small carpenters nail. Be CAREFUL of the toe lever as it is cammed and if it snaps shut while your finger is near it's going to hurt.
https://scontent.fyvr3-1.fna.fbcdn.n...d7&oe=5ACA3356
Tecton toe surgery . Step 3
Once the press-fit pin is removed you can also remove the toe lever bump. Use something flat to carefully pry the plastic toe lever bump out.
If you're careful the toe bump won't be damaged and you can re-install later if you wish
https://scontent.fyvr3-1.fna.fbcdn.n...c8&oe=5ACB535B
Tecton toe lever contact point with bump removed showing that there is slightly more room but that the boot can still contact and potentially be damaged by impact with the toe lever
https://scontent.fyvr3-1.fna.fbcdn.n...2d&oe=5AB9662E
Kneefall on a Tecton/Evo with toe lever locked out. The boot would still contact the toe lever before the knee hit the ground.
If the toe lever is locked out there is potential for boot damage since the Tecton/Evo lever is designed to not release when locked out.
https://scontent.fyvr3-1.fna.fbcdn.n...23&oe=5AB996C9
Kneefall on a Vipec Black with toe lever locked out. The boot would contact the toe lever before the knee hit the ground.
The Vipec Black toe can release even when the toe lever is locked out if the toe lever is locked out in the intermediate mode
https://scontent.fyvr3-1.fna.fbcdn.n...4b&oe=5AC86632
Kneefall on a Comfort with toe lever locked out. The knee would contact the ground before the boot hit the toe lever.
CONCLUSION
Removing the toe bump stop on the Tecton/EVO toe lever helps a bit with boot toe-lever clearance but doesn't solve the potential boot damage issue. Only grinding away plastic at the toe lever bump (irreversible) would solve the potential boot damage issue.
Pairing older Vipec toes with the newer Tecton/EVO toes would solve the potential boot damage issue. Heeding Fritschi's advice to not lock out the Tecton/EVO toes where there is potential to have a knee-fall would also solve the issue but in my opinion impair the utility of the binding since many people lock the Tecton/EVO toes out when touring to stay in the binding
Brain-storming permanent fixes
1. Moving the toe lever bump
https://scontent.fyvr3-1.fna.fbcdn.n...2f&oe=5AC366B0
However, there is a cammed mechanism in the toe lever and query if moving the bump this way would impair function?
2. Reintroducing an intermediate lockout at the toe lever (ie the same way there was one on the Vipec black toe)
IMPORTANT _ read update 1 - https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...16#post5206916
Thanks so much, Lee. Super helpful.
I’m inclined to frankenbinding it up and pair my vipec black toe with my tecton heel. What do we think the bad pair (vipec heel, tecton toe) is worth on TGR?
Great summary. Thanks, Lee!
... Thom
Redesign the toe bump to bridge to the lever (forward of the lever pivot), and 3D print 'em?
^ honestly wouldn't be too hard
If anyone wants to volunteer a pair of toes for me for a while once I'm back with access to the shop I'd give it a go
THX LeeL!
Before going the 3D print route, I'll see if that middle link can be modified to prevent it from trapping the lever and still provide enough clearance for the boot toe.
Muggy, I’ll wait for 1000-oaks to try a modification, but I got my tectons for a good deal and I have vipec black toes for the interim. I would ship you my toes to let you try 3D printing a new toe bump. I can’t quite picture what you and Drew have in mind and I’m not an engineer. Would the new bump be lower? Moved to a different location on the toe piece? Can you both elaborate further on what you have in mind?
Mill or grind off the front half of the pivot link so it's thinner but still works (without trapping the lever nub), epoxy a slice of UHMW into the pocket (just epoxy might be enough, depending on the size of the void) so it still pushes on the lever nub to release it in both ski and walk modes. Just an idea, won't know if it could work until I pull it off.
Lol, keep telling myself to stop modifying stuff, makes it a pain in the ass to sell down the road, even if it is an improvement.
Meh, I'll just tour with toe in ski mode, and see if its even a problem. With Din at 10, thinking it won't really be an issue.
I don't see any situation where I'll want to ski with toes locked out.