16mm recommendations?

yeah, I know...two camera threads...

im a film student and will be doing 16mm stuff in the fall (plus taking a class on handprocessing my own film!)

anyway, I know its expensive, but good cameras are like good guns...they last (as long as you take care of them)

so, I really dont want to deal with renting a camera because I plan to shoot a ton, and dont want to worry about cameras not being available when last minute shooting goes down (ie a stealth storm)


what should I get?

lightweight is a huge bonus...


EvilE?


p.s. I still got to talk to my friend about the audis...my bad

I almost bought one of these to play with... Go ahead and laugh.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Movie-Camera-Kra...QQcmdZViewItem

Dude, you had to sell all of your shit because you got a speeding ticket. Sure you can afford a camera?

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Originally Posted by FigureEleven

Dude, you had to sell all of your shit because you got a speeding ticket. Sure you can afford a camera?

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well, this is a school expense type thing

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Originally Posted by skiing-in-jackson

I almost bought one of these to play with... Go ahead and laugh.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Movie-Camera-Kra...QQcmdZViewItem

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that looks fucking awesome. i mjust might bid if it doesnt get much higher, and you dont want it too bad. dont wanna hijack your find

not that I know anything about 16mm

but I do know a lot about russian optics and cameras and they fuckin rock.
I bought a moskva 5 a couple of years ago that was made in 1958 that takes damned near Leica quality pictures for 70$...of course thats not too hard to believe since the camera and optics were basically reversed engineered german ones.

I forget the website, but theres at least one out there and while this one doesnt have anything regarding 16mm as far as I know, he might have a link somewhere or can answer some questions for you.
http://cameras.alfredklomp.com/

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Originally Posted by couloirman

dont wanna hijack your find

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No No, Don't worry about that. It's yours if you want it. Does anybody know a good website for FAQ's and beginner info on 16mm?

there are a shit ton of thos Kransgork-3 cameras on e-bay....they are handcrank style

IMO: Don't buy a 16mm camera. While there are good deals to be found, the cost of film is going to break you. Even if you process it yourself, you will still need to take it to a lab and get it transferred to tape so you can edit it, which is not cheap.

I would buy one of Sony's HD handicams for about $4K if I was you. Not only will it cost less in the long run than shooting film, but you can make money with it by freelancing.

Don't get me wrong- right now 16 mm looks better. And right now it is superior for slow motion. But no matter what Kodak tells you, film is a dying format. Digital is improving at an astonishing rate. Look at any issue of Powder. Can you tell the shots taken on film vs, digital? I can't.

Use the student rental cameras for your first couple of projects, ans see how you like the format. IF you really love it, than you might consider buying a 16mm setup. But trust me, once you start adding up all te accessories to go with the camera, expext to spend at least $10K.

But to answer your origina question- buy an Arriflex.

phish

i have some insight for you and i hope you take all i say to heart and head.

what are your intentions with the cu film program? do you want to shoot film for a living? do you want to edit? or produce? think on this long and hard. Perhaps the program has changed, and i hope it has, but when i was a student it was an art program especially because of the influence of stan brakhage who was alive and teaching while i was a student. He was to film as picasso was to painting and to have him in the school put the focus on the abstract. I remember many students (like myself) who tried as hard as they could to produce professional looking work with storylines and plots only to be shut down in class by the kid with the pretty colors flashing across the screen.

its great to learn how to shoot film and I learned a ton at the CU film school I bought a 16mm camera last year. An arriflex 16ST that i purchased for about 1200 from an australian film school. I had to have the lens overhauled for another 400 cause it wouldnt stay in focus. Do you know how much ive used the camera? Hardly ever. My panasonic dvx100a mini dv camera is SOOO much more useful, handy, bomber in cold temps and when i use my 24p setting its very very hard to tell the difference between 16mm. Now that HD 24p is a reality that camera will rock and Im seriously thinking about getting a new rig for next season.

CUs program was in flux when i went, it was right before digital was good enough to be used in films so there was a big push for film over everything. Are they still making you take a video production class as a second course without allowing you to use professional editing equipment?

I know that CU has a mixed media program now, I wish they had that when i went. You will be so much more well rounded, employable, and skilled if you have experience in all those other formats and areas of multi media, i would highly recommend looking into it.

Its hard for me to discourage you about 16mm cameras because its cool to shoot film, it looks amazing and it takes skill to do it right. However, you have mentioned before your financial situation isnt stellar, and shooting 16mm film is unnecessarily expensive as a student. Unless youre just in love with shooting video, film, photographs and anything else I would highly recommend not taking such a narrow path through CU (think multimedia). Unless that is if you plan on moving to LA or NYC and starting your way up the biz ladder or have serious aspirations in the film industry. Good luck at CU it is a great program, but i wish the instructors would have given us some insight on how to achieve our post grad goals. PM me or call anytime to discuss all this.

thanks for the info.

obviously, digital is where it is all headed, and digital is where I want to get to and shoot eventually.

Yes, the program is still very art influenced, but the new ATLAS building on campus opens this fall and will be the new home of the film program. I will have access to state of the art digital equipment and even a full studio for live 5.1 mixing and shit. Basically the program is taking a gigantic step into the future. I do also enjoy shooting film, and my teacher this semester will be teaching the hand processing class next semester and has done some amazing work with the processing. Digital has come a long way, and I want a nice digital camera too. But I will be shooting only 16 next year and dont want to have to pay a shit ton (20 bucks a day) to rent a 16 from the kage.


its gonna be a sweet building though

http://www.colorado.edu/ATLAS/

ok. if youre set on 16mm there are a few things to consider. Are you going to be looking for something that is able to do sync sound? Or do you want something specifically for MOS? (no sound, only images) An arriflex S, ST, or SB are great for action sports and has been known to be the go to workhorse for a long time. I know that gaffney, tgr, and a slew of others rely on this camera for ease of operation. its a great camera for sure and would be a nice way to go for you, but its really very very noisy and doesnt do sync sound without some costly modifications. Bolexes are also great cameras, but the viewfinder is a pain in the ass. You can modify the viewfinders, but I havent done it. If you want to do sync sound with film youre jumping into a whole other $ bracket and options. what does CU have for rentals right now? do they have any arri packages for rental at the cage?

You want to learn some REAL shit? WORK AT THE CAGE!!! I wish i had. You will learn more working there than you will in most of your classes. Instead of shelling out your money to get help from them and equipment it will be the other way around. And Im not positive but i think you will be able to get most or all of the equipment there for free. I used to use their beaulieux ( im spelling this wrong im sure) which is a battery powered french bolex that ruled.

This may be your best option yet because you will get to use all their equipment and then find what works for you before you buy anything.

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Originally Posted by Evil E

You want to learn some REAL shit? WORK AT THE CAGE!!!

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Seconded. And become a proctor in the multimedia lab as well.

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Originally Posted by skiing-in-jackson

I almost bought one of these to play with... Go ahead and laugh.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Movie-Camera-Kra...QQcmdZViewItem

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I actually have one of these... purchased off ebay - noisy as a lawnmower and certainly not to be considered 'lightweight', but you can dial the frame rate up to 48fps (you can also spend some extra cash on 3rd party crystal sync & motor drive - but IMHO, it's not worth it - it is what it is). We used it as a cheap 2nd camera to film some explosions for a 16mm feature - and for that job it rocked! I think I remember reading that Spike Lee used one of these a lot at film school.

I took it to Cham with bad_roo... got about 2 minutes of test footage in the can before I crashed with it in my backpack & bent the lens mount. Lens can no longer be removed - but the thing's so bulletproof - it still works!

The comments on 16mm film, processing & telecine costs are right on - we shot about 17 hours of footage for a 90 minute feature - it was pretty much all we spent our £30k budget on (and that was at a 'help us, we're pretending to be students' rate). Obviously can be done cheaper - but it's no where near the cost of HD / HDV consumables.

Don't even get me started on the increased complexities of a film based workflow.... however - I think it does enforce a discipline that you just won't get with digital. Looking back, I'm glad we did it on 16mm... would I do it on film again with hindsight - probably not... but would I use digital for our next project... probably not - the 'look' just isn't there for me - in fact, we're considering 35mm.


Shameless plug: http://www.freakoutmovie.com - Europe DVD release May 29th... US DVD release in October on Anchor Bay.