United Healthcare CEO shot to death in front of NYC investor meeting

[stealurface831]

youda thought he might touch up those brows since they were uncovered the whole time and goddamn are they an easy identifier.

[AK47bp]

[emoji638]][emoji640][emoji640]][emoji639][emoji637];[emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji639]][emoji637][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]][emoji638][emoji640]]youda thought he might touch up those brows since they were uncovered the whole time and goddamn are they an easy identifier.

They’re like [emoji638] caterpillars in a staring contest


Sent from my iPhone using [emoji638]][emoji640][emoji640]][emoji640][emoji638][emoji638][emoji638]]TGR Forums

[bennymac]

Well, if you want to argue the US has a lot more unnecessary healthcare and CRS and HIPEC is available in Canada but they are more selective then who's worse Canadian bureaucrats or American heath insurance companies?

Boom. Thank you. We got there. It was painful as fuck but here we are.

Bureaucrats didn’t decide. The surgeon did.

Can’t believe I was arguing with someone presenting themself as having even a rudimentary understanding of the situation. JFC.

I shoulda known when they used a news article as proof of how universal health works at a population level. My fault

[MultiVerse]

Bureaucrats didn’t decide. The surgeon did.

lol, you really are smarmy. The article literally says the exact opposite. Bureaucrats told her “the services you chose to receive in the U.S. would not have been the recommended treatment for your cancer diagnosis” and that explains why the surgeon told her, "she was not a candidate for surgery."

What did you do before they made you the little prince of the undead?

[stealurface831]

They’re like 2 caterpillars in a staring contest

pretty handsome devil otherwise though.

[bennymac]

lol, you really are smarmy. The article literally says the exact opposite. Bureaucrats told her “the services you chose to receive in the U.S. would not have been the recommended treatment for your cancer diagnosis” and the surgeon told her, "she was not a candidate for surgery."

I speak from experience. You speak from news article. Oh and the health care workers in your family.

[MultiVerse]

Well if you want step outside your anecdotal experience, studies show survival rates for health matched controls in America are better. You get diagnosed with lung cancer? You survive longer and better in the states than your doppleganger in Britain or France. You need a liver transplant from Hep C? Get it here if you want lower rejection odds. Get abdominal cancer in Canada and need a HIPEC procedure? America is the place to have it done.

American healthcare starts with sicker patients. That's why studies showing other countries spending less for similar or better healthcare than the United States are just blithely disingenuous (i.e., they lie)

[bennymac]

You’re the one making claims and then using an article you didn’t fully grasp to back them up. Don’t blame me for your anecdotal source and your inability to understand it and your attempt to use it to make wide ranging conclusions.

Not to mention getting Anesthesia Techs and Nurse Anesthetists mixed up.

If I read an online news article about a narrow aspect of your professional area of expertise and then I start trying to educate you about how everything works you can tell me to STFU and I won’t call you smarmy.

Which is what everyone in here wishes I had done to you instead of trying to get you to defend your claims.

[MultiVerse]

I called you smarmy b/c you misrepresented the article (i.e., you lied about it). It's crazy that you're doubling down on it even when shown direct quotes. Your argument is based on things you just made up. Seriously, you conjured up an entirely different sequence of events

Not to mention getting Anesthesia Techs and Nurse Anesthetists mixed up.

I didn't but think what you want b/c it doesn't matter. The point is there are many cases where healthcare professionals are required by law to work under the supervision of doctors by law even though that doesn't improve health outcomes and is just an unnecessary added cost

[evdog]

Anesthesiologist providers very often have been found participating in surprise billing and overcharging. As a result state and the federal government passed surprise billing laws, "prices paid to anesthesiologists in hospital outpatient departments and ASCs decreased after these states passed surprise-billing legislation. Their experience offers early insights into how prices may change under the federal No Surprises Act and in states that have recently passed their own legislation."

I had to take over handling health insurance at a previous company I worked for. The insurance broker we worked with called this group the RAPERS (Radiologists, Anesthesiologists, Pathologists, and ER doctors) because in most cases these providers are not hospital employees and did not contract with insurance companies even though they worked primarily within hospitals that did. So like a responsible patient you'd go to a hospital that was in your network, and then get surprise bills from these providers who were unknowingly not in your network. Thankfully that is not an issue now that surprise billing laws exist in many places. It shows that a lot of issues in the health care system can be solved with simple laws rather than full reform - which may never happen.

We have (had?)a whole thread dedicated to determining whether Elmo is a complete clown. It was established some time ago that the answer is a definitive yes.

Seems like this is an appropriate segway between topics : )

Most hospitals don't have shareholders because most are "non-profit." But I've come to learn that non-profit is a nebulous term in healthcare where for-profits can own non-profits and vice versa.

You can be sure there is a lot more behind the scenes fuckery than just the health insurance side.

That non-profit hospital is probably owned ultimately by private equity. And you can bet its for-profit owner is charging big management fees, along with "rent" on the property the non-profit occupies that the for-profit owns. And lets not forget it is probably saddled with interest and debt payments after for-profit acquired it using loans to leverage the acquisition.

[bennymac]

I called you smarmy b/c you misrepresented the article (i.e., you lied about it). It's crazy that you're doubling down on it even when shown direct quotes. Your argument is based on things you just made up. Seriously, you conjured something up out of nothing

You’re unraveling.

A bureaucrat in Canada can’t turn down a surgery if that’s the standard of care. That’s one point of many you have gotten confused about.

You thought HIPEC wasn’t available in systems with universal coverage. Another point you got wrong. They’re adding up.

I can find you two doctors who agree on the standard of care of a condition but disagree on where an individual patient falls in that treatment paradigm. That’s not special nor a condemnation of universal health care systems

Medical guidelines and decisions are made by the doctors and researchers. When a doctor says this patient is not a candidate that’s the decision made by that doctor. If they say “this patients requires this surgery” then that takes place.

If - outside of all those things you got wrong - you want to explain with facts why there may be an inappropriate difference in standards of care for state 4 peritoneal carcinomatosis between the US system and other universal health care systems with HIPEC availability go ahead.

Right now you have one surgeons opinion vs another - reported by a news organization - based on quotes from a patient. You gotta long road ahead to use that to prove the guidelines are inappropriately different and that difference is due to the “socialized system declaring the advanced treatment was not cost effective and phased it out”

Good luck. I’ll be the better man and let you have the last word.

[MultiVerse]

One of us is unraveling but it's not me. It's the standard of care for her cancer in America, not in Canada. That's the point. At least that's what the article says: “the services you chose to receive in the U.S. would not have been the recommended treatment for your cancer diagnosis.”

Again, that was my original argument backed up by the article. It may well be one surgeons opinion in one country vs another's opinion in a different country. Fine, whatever. But that's not what the article says because that's not what Canadian health authorities told the patient.

[summit]

Private Equity IS late stage capitalism (a term I detest for a thing I detest)

[bobz]

youda thought he might touch up those brows since they were uncovered the whole time and goddamn are they an easy identifier.

Yeah, a mid-20s guy at a McDonalds in the middle of nowhere ought to be able to blend in pretty well. But those eyebrows blew the game for him!

I don't think he was trying to get caught. He did a bunch of things, some of them clever, to try to get away with this. Wasn't nearly clever enough though. Reminds me of that scene from Body Heat, "Any time you try a decent crime, you got fifty ways you're gonna fuck up. If you think of twenty-five of them, then you're a genius - and you ain't no genius."

[subtle plague]

Another Multiverse expert thread? Not surprising....... But I didn't have health care assassination expert on my Multiverse bingo card. But now I know Canada is a socialist third world country. Carry on.

[Mazderati]

I'm not sure that's actually correct. The US system spends a lot of money on all of the middlemen - for example, the recent investigations of pharmacy benefit manager companies, who theoretically control drug costs but in practice make plans more expensive for the purchaser. AFAIK, the total effect of the PBMs is not a huge percentage of drug costs, but these middle layers of the healthcare system are everywhere. I know somebody who studies this stuff professionally who regularly points out that the main difference between the US and European healthcare systems is that the US has about the same level of care outcomes but spends 2-3x as much per capita.

It's not correct. Insurance middlemen reported 25B in net income last year. 213B in capital and surplus.

https://www.vox.com/policy/390031/an...mits-insurance

For-profit insurance companies should not be empowered to set limits for healthcare. That is true even if costs of care are exorbitant.

Separately, it would be interesting to see annual rates over time given the pandemic's direct impact on surgery rates. This may explain part of the jump in pay.

I had to take over handling health insurance at a previous company I worked for. The insurance broker we worked with called this group the RAPERS (Radiologists, Anesthesiologists, Pathologists, and ER doctors) because in most cases these providers are not hospital employees and did not contract with insurance companies even though they worked primarily within hospitals that did. So like a responsible patient you'd go to a hospital that was in your network, and then get surprise bills from these providers who were unknowingly not in your network. Thankfully that is not an issue now that surprise billing laws exist in many places. It shows that a lot of issues in the health care system can be solved with simple laws rather than full reform - which may never happen.

...

You can be sure there is a lot more behind the scenes fuckery than just the health insurance side.

That non-profit hospital is probably owned ultimately by private equity. And you can bet its for-profit owner is charging big management fees, along with "rent" on the property the non-profit occupies that the for-profit owns. And lets not forget it is probably saddled with interest and debt payments after for-profit acquired it using loans to leverage the acquisition.

E.g., Steward. PE-owned physician staffing firms are partly to blame for the staffing issues you describe.



My anecdote: I'll have waited seven months to see a US surgeon for a consultation for an elective procedure. Wait for procedure, itself, TBD.

[MultiVerse]

Another Multiverse expert thread? Not surprising....... But I didn't have health care assassination expert on my Multiverse bingo card. But now I know Canada is a socialist third world country. Carry on.

That German humor again, as bleak as a Swedish police drama

[subtle plague]

That German humor again, as bleak as a Swedish police drama

Sorry we're only good at nazi things.

https://youtu.be/iGkehr0STcw?si=oezQBUOxQwyu41Lr

[Mazderati]

Another Multiverse expert thread? Not surprising....... But I didn't have health care assassination expert on my Multiverse bingo card. But now I know Canada is a socialist third world country. Carry on.

[Atrain505]

I’ll provide an anecdote as an American living in Canada who has experienced both sides. My dad in the states has a rare form of cancer. He had great health insurance he paid exorbitantly through his business for years. He continues to survive because he takes a pill that is a mild chemo once a day that is about 30 grand a month (among a few other recurring treatment things). He has been stable for over a decade. Without that insurance he would be dead and bankrupt. He recently switched to Medicare. He continues to be covered. Early in his journey he was misdiagnosed many many times. That journey led him to Mayo Clinic.
I checked with an oncologist friend here in Canada. With the diagnosis treatment would be the same here. There was one time where my old man’s cancer started being unmanageable again for about 6 months. And that was because the company that owned the rights to the drug was bought. The new company stopped manufacturing the drug. Miraculously it came back on the market after 6 months with a 250% markup. Who would have thunk it? Luckily my old man had been stashing pills overtime and had a 3 month extra supply. But that 3 months without almost cost him.

Father in law here in Canada got brain cancer a few years ago. We didn’t know if he was going to survive the year. He didn’t get a good vibe from the first doctor. So he got a 2nd opinion/new doctor who was younger and had more energy as he put it. Chemo radiation. Etc. The whole nine yards. All delivered in a timely fashion because well when your life depends on it you get thrown to the front of the line. Cancer free for a couple years. Didn’t pay a dime but obviously he missed a bunch of work.

Anyways quite happy with socialist medicine here in Canada. Profit should not be a part of the decision tree in regards to human beings health plain and simple. It is morally and ethically fucked up.

Just some anecdotes.




Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[coldfeet]

The whole "here is a story where something bad happened in Canada" argument, while possibly relevant to the quality of Canadian healthcare, is basically irrelevant to the story of the UHC CEO and why Americans are so riled up about the American healthcare system. It's not just whether it has bad outcomes, but that it makes you feel like a helpless pawn at the mercy of large uncaring forces. You can kind of tell that US shit is fucked up by the several healthcare professionals (not me) posting in this thread about how shit is fucked up.

To be honest, I was not surprised that TGR came up with a thread of sick jokes about the murder of the UHC CEO. That's what you guys are good at. What surprised me a little is how everyone else either made or repeated sick jokes or was rapidly exposed to them, even if they don't hang around unfiltered backwaters of the Internet. A few of my non-USanian friends are a little taken aback, as if this indicates some kind of American gross insensitivity. I have tried explaining, No, it's just that you really do not imagine how alienating our system is and how fed up people are.

[dan_pdx]

Yeah, a mid-20s guy at a McDonalds in the middle of nowhere ought to be able to blend in pretty well. But those eyebrows blew the game for him!

I don't think he was trying to get caught. He did a bunch of things, some of them clever, to try to get away with this. Wasn't nearly clever enough though. Reminds me of that scene from Body Heat, "Any time you try a decent crime, you got fifty ways you're gonna fuck up. If you think of twenty-five of them, then you're a genius - and you ain't no genius."

That sounds about right. Wonder why he didn't leave the country immediately, before his photo got out

[summit]

I didn't have on my killer bingo card: elite private educated from primary school through his compsci Ivy League masters degree, son of a fabulously wealthy family who has close relatives in state government and who are doctors. Clearly intelligent, but clearly not street savvy...

From what I have read so far, his beliefs are complex and don't fit neatly in an ideological box, including mixes of libertarian views combined with anti-corporatist/capitalist views. I'm sure that all comers will try to cram him into the ideological box they desire him to fit.

[Cono Este]

I’ll provide an anecdote as an American living in Canada who has experienced both sides. My dad in the states has a rare form of cancer. He had great health insurance he paid exorbitantly through his business for years. He continues to survive because he takes a pill that is a mild chemo once a day that is about 30 grand a month (among a few other recurring treatment things). He has been stable for over a decade. Without that insurance he would be dead and bankrupt. He recently switched to Medicare. He continues to be covered. Early in his journey he was misdiagnosed many many times. That journey led him to Mayo Clinic.
I checked with an oncologist friend here in Canada. With the diagnosis treatment would be the same here. There was one time where my old man’s cancer started being unmanageable again for about 6 months. And that was because the company that owned the rights to the drug was bought. The new company stopped manufacturing the drug. Miraculously it came back on the market after 6 months with a 250% markup. Who would have thunk it? Luckily my old man had been stashing pills overtime and had a 3 month extra supply. But that 3 months without almost cost him.

Father in law here in Canada got brain cancer a few years ago. We didn’t know if he was going to survive the year. He didn’t get a good vibe from the first doctor. So he got a 2nd opinion/new doctor who was younger and had more energy as he put it. Chemo radiation. Etc. The whole nine yards. All delivered in a timely fashion because well when your life depends on it you get thrown to the front of the line. Cancer free for a couple years. Didn’t pay a dime but obviously he missed a bunch of work.

Anyways quite happy with socialist medicine here in Canada. Profit should not be a part of the decision tree in regards to human beings health plain and simple. It is morally and ethically fucked up.

Just some anecdotes.




Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Good story, I hope your Dad remains healthy.

There is room for a lot of debate. Some of us have experience with both private and public systems

I am a fan of the UK system, The nhs is used by rock stars , happily. But what most people don’t realize, is that there is also a private system there, and oir “medicare for all” plan eliminates here.. Yes, ask Bernie.

So, the nhs works 99% of the time, but you still want options. Without options, how is that any different from being beholden to an insurance company?

I can tell you my aunt did not get a timely mammogram and died of breast cancer. My father told her doctor he killed her.

My cousin, on day 12 of Covid tried checking herself in the same hospital she worked, was sent home, and died in her sleep with her two yr old.

My uncle, was told he had to wait for prostate surgery so he paid 30k for private just recently. Same operation would cost double here btw.

You want options. We should have a public system, I see a lot of doctors who don’t want to run a practice with the cost of malpractice insurance?

Have we talked about that yet? My father in law, spent more on malpractice than he took home. Like 400k a yr. And there are few insurers left. Big problem in the US.

[Cono Este]

you're doing that wrong walkinlab.com

Quest is actually fine, so is Labcorp, they're not the problem

Thanks for that, but I am under the care of a specialist, and that guy is making me use his guy. Don’t see him helping anyone with respect to their wallets. Fact. Sadly.

As a diabetic, I was uninsured before Obamacare, I’d pay cash. I am actually a fan, but it’s not perfect. How could I not be?

When I was uninsured, as a diabetic, pre ACa. First, I had to pay a fucking doctor just to order the labs, 300, then the labs. Then They run the bill by having me speak with a nutritionist for 5 minutes.

It’s a fucking racket.

The minute we get anywhere near a social system, the AMA, their lobbyists, and country club jerk offs, are gonna shoot it down.