NERDING OUT- Mount Position, Cuff Angle, Binding Delta, and the like

[Marshal Olson]

Interesting. So theoretically a low stack / fixed afd binding could accommodate GW dimensionally onto a ski. I didn’t realize that.

do you know if there is an intentional effort to migrate rec skiers into flat bindings? Or is that more an outcome of layering the features into the binding? It seems that performance (ie atomic icon) bindings are all still low toe stack and fixed afd setups.

i totally get that many folks benefit from flat or gas pedaled toes. It’s just that not everyone does, so the universal change leaves me scratching my head. Maybe it’s a “20% better for 80% of the people” equation.

[Marshal Olson]

Couple items:

Shims & screws - Cold River Supply will make you a shim or sell you their universal or blanks in 1,2,3,5,6mm ; Tognar has many / most length screws.

Forward lean: its a hot mess...... I like more than less.

Not mentioned yet, most critical: Cuff Alignment laterally. Biggest issue in past 20 years is that cuffs are getting more strong (out) and we are downsizing more for a precise fit. I have found the static eyeball the shin in the shell useless ( go grab the pitch forks.......). I'm now coaching that cuffs are the boot equivalents to the base bevel. Cuff strong engages at the top of the turn too much and chunders the exit. Cuff soft (in) is vague at the top of the turn and allows butters and slarves and stivots. Too soft, no turn.... Start in the middle & play with it - this has solved hooky skis for myself and softer is better for 100mm skis in freeride mode for me.

Many WCers will run 1.5 on the sole for SL, 0.5 for GS & 0.0 for Speed. YMMV.

yes! Cuff alignment! Great add! I just go neutral for free skiing but love seeing the theory and practice!

[turnfarmer]

I have heard the same, for the same reason, from very experienced boot fitters:
If a skier has a high range of dorsiflexion, use a boot(set up) with more forward lean at the cuff (a more closed angle), then compensate for the shift in forward movement of the hips by raising the toes.

Since dorsiflexion is the only body part that I am flexible in, this applies to me too. And like you, I find if my boot is too “open” at the ankle, I can not get good pressure on the front of my foot. Instead, I hit the cuff, and lose the power and control from my foot and ankle muscles.

Rather than a high forward lean angle that can put a skier in an overflexed position, I prefer to shim the metheads a little for skiers with higher than average dorsiflexion. The heel of the boot board can also be ground down a little. Sometimes a combo of the two works best. A little goes a long way, 1 to 4mm at most. A caveat is if you don’t have excessive dorsiflexion or you overdue it the Achilles is at risk.

[turnfarmer]

Interesting. So theoretically a low stack / fixed afd binding could accommodate GW dimensionally onto a ski. I didn’t realize that.

do you know if there is an intentional effort to migrate rec skiers into flat bindings? Or is that more an outcome of layering the features into the binding? It seems that performance (ie atomic icon) bindings are all still low toe stack and fixed afd setups.

i totally get that many folks benefit from flat or gas pedaled toes. It’s just that not everyone does, so the universal change leaves me scratching my head. Maybe it’s a “20% better for 80% of the people” equation.

Interesting thought about lowering binding delta trend. When the Strive was announced, it’s was said the heel was higher than the toe, I was expecting it to be at least 5mm, but it turned out to be 3.5 mm versus the nearly 7mm of the STH2.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Interesting. So theoretically a low stack / fixed afd binding could accommodate GW dimensionally onto a ski. I didn’t realize that.

do you know if there is an intentional effort to migrate rec skiers into flat bindings? Or is that more an outcome of layering the features into the binding? It seems that performance (ie atomic icon) bindings are all still low toe stack and fixed afd setups.

i totally get that many folks benefit from flat or gas pedaled toes. It’s just that not everyone does, so the universal change leaves me scratching my head. Maybe it’s a “20% better for 80% of the people” equation.

I’ve used GW boots in STH/9xx series bindings for years and they release reliably. The sole lugs are clear and the afd sits right on the binding afd.


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[Marshal Olson]

I’ve used GW boots in STH/9xx series bindings for years and they release reliably. The sole lugs are clear and the afd sits right on the binding afd.


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interesting, good data point!

[Marshal Olson]

Interesting thought about lowering binding delta trend. When the Strive was announced, it’s was said the heel was higher than the toe, I was expecting it to be at least 5mm, but it turned out to be 3.5 mm versus the nearly 7mm of the STH2.

you just sold me a 747 strive, haha

[carlh]

Count me in the wanting low toes. I find the sth2 wtr fixed afd delta better than a warden/mnc version that is 2mm higher. I guess I need to start hording or increase my forward lean.
For one nerdy kid: how does adjustable forward lean interact with effective stiffness and cuff angle at a given pressure? If I change the lean angle of my hawx and apply the same pressure I expect at least some of the delta disappears as I flex the boot.

[ZomblibulaX]

Serious question. What is the value-add of Gripwalk?

For "people who ski", not "skiers", it's appreciable. 90% of the skiing population don't own more than one pair of skis (or any at all), and will never get above a solid intermediate skill level. For most people, skiing is an exercise in waiting in line (for parking, tickets, lessons, lifts, meals, rentals) punctuated by small bouts of moderate recreational activity. Whether we like it or not, beginners and intermediates drive the market, and with new skier retention being one of the greatest hurdles the industry faces, the technology shifts that way. Grippy soles, tighter sidecuts, softer/lighter skis, increased/unnecessary taper/rocker, easier entry boots, progressive mount points. It's Jerry's world, we're just skiing in it. Thank you again for creating HL.

What I was referring to specifically is the GripWalk AFD on the Look Pivot 15 and 18. It's 3.5mm higher than the alpine AFD with no change in the heel. The binding function doesn't require it, even with the rockered sole. I've never been able to get a straight answer from a rep why (and they don't care anyway). It makes the binding ski significantly differently, but it might jive better with very progressive mounts. I personally hate it.

If a brand has done it correctly, GripWalk should ski and feel no differently than a 2-component ISO 5355 grip pad.

As far as vagueness/squishiness with GW soles, I think some of it is in people's heads (sorry, Marshal). The heel still contacts the brake treadle with solid plastic, same in the toe. As far as contact/responsiveness, switching between, say, Marshal's preferred Tyrolia FF17, a Griffon, and a Shift with the same boot on the same ski isn't even the same ballpark. I'm not saying there's no difference between alpine and GW soles, but there are far smaller changes (as pointed out in this thread) that make way bigger differences.

Does anyone want to make heel shims + screw for CAST?.

Easy enough to trace it onto an ABS sheet (Home Depot, Amazon) and cut it. Screws at Tognar as mentioned above. Only reason I did this was for a guy with a pretty big leg-length discrepancy that we couldn't entirely make up for in the boot, and quickly realized that the brake retainer could accommodate some difference with the brake height, but not 8mm.

[natebob]

Great thread! Lots of great info. and knowledge here. I've been thinking a lot about these things last couple years, have read Shorty J's thread and whatever else I could find here but can't quite home in on what I like.

Me:
- 6'1", 170 lbs, fairly proportional leg length to height.
- 28.5 boot size
- Somewhat limited ankle ROM. I've been told I have a boney blockage between tibia and talus.
- Pretty severe pronation.
- Large calves.
- Competent advanced skier, but not super aggressive. Mostly touring.

Ski/Binding:
- Voile Manti with Hagan/ATK Pin Up shimmed to a delta of 10mm, mounted 1cm back from boot center mark, or -7 from center.
Boots:
-Skorpius 308 bsl, 12* fwd lean, small heel lift
-Zero G Peak Carbon 307 bsl, 13* fwd lean, small heel lift
-Radial Pro 317 bsl, 11* fwd lean

I'm feeling heavy on the heels, light on the mets, tips feel squirrely. Yet if I try to pressure the mets, I feel like I'm falling forward, so I lean back, can't find the balance. The boots have similar fwd leans, but the Skorpius feel like waay more lean than the Rad Pro, and more than the ZGPC. I think the Rad Pro has the flattest boot board, and is my favorite of the three.

I'm more of an old school style, pressure the tongues and tips kind of skier, have mostly skied more rearward mounted skis, although I've been trying to like more forward mounted skis. Not sure if I'm skiing them right.

Older tech bindings with high delta felt like I was falling forward, so started shimming toes. I realize 10mm delta is still pretty high. The last set-up I really clicked with was a Super Charger with a binding with 10mm delta and a Maestrale with I think 14* lean. For some reason that boot felt like the most upright of all. I seem to prefer upright boots, and have read they are good for limited ROM. But as GoldenBC pointed out, maybe that is over emphasized.

Should I go for less binding delta? Less fwd lean? Maybe fwd mounts are not for me?

[Dromond]

Great thread! Lots of great info. and knowledge here. I've been thinking a lot about these things last couple years, have read Shorty J's thread and whatever else I could find here but can't quite home in on what I like.

Me:
- 6'1", 170 lbs, fairly proportional leg length to height.
- 28.5 boot size
- Somewhat limited ankle ROM. I've been told I have a boney blockage between tibia and talus.
- Pretty severe pronation.
- Large calves.
- Competent advanced skier, but not super aggressive. Mostly touring.

Ski/Binding:
- Voile Manti with Hagan/ATK Pin Up shimmed to a delta of 10mm, mounted 1cm back from boot center mark, or -7 from center.
Boots:
-Skorpius 308 bsl, 12* fwd lean, small heel lift
-Zero G Peak Carbon 307 bsl, 13* fwd lean, small heel lift
-Radial Pro 317 bsl, 11* fwd lean

I'm feeling heavy on the heels, light on the mets, tips feel squirrely. Yet if I try to pressure the mets, I feel like I'm falling forward, so I lean back, can't find the balance. The boots have similar fwd leans, but the Skorpius feel like waay more lean than the Rad Pro, and more than the ZGPC. I think the Rad Pro has the flattest boot board, and is my favorite of the three.

I'm more of an old school style, pressure the tongues and tips kind of skier, have mostly skied more rearward mounted skis, although I've been trying to like more forward mounted skis. Not sure if I'm skiing them right.

Older tech bindings with high delta felt like I was falling forward, so started shimming toes. I realize 10mm delta is still pretty high. The last set-up I really clicked with was a Super Charger with a binding with 10mm delta and a Maestrale with I think 14* lean. For some reason that boot felt like the most upright of all. I seem to prefer upright boots, and have read they are good for limited ROM. But as GoldenBC pointed out, maybe that is over emphasized.

Should I go for less binding delta? Less fwd lean? Maybe fwd mounts are not for me?

Amateur assessment: you may feel heavy on the heels because you are shifting your weight back to hit your balance. I agree that 10mm is quite a bit of delta when you consider that some alpine bindings are 4-6mm, and some pin bindings are 0mm. Trying something with much less delta seems worthwhile, at least when on a ski that is more forward-mounted.

[mntlion]

Great thread! Lots of great info. and knowledge here. I've been thinking a lot about these things last couple years, have read Shorty J's thread and whatever else I could find here but can't quite home in on what I like.

Me:
- 6'1", 170 lbs, fairly proportional leg length to height.
- 28.5 boot size
- Somewhat limited ankle ROM. I've been told I have a boney blockage between tibia and talus.
- Pretty severe pronation.
- Large calves.
- Competent advanced skier, but not super aggressive. Mostly touring.

Ski/Binding:
- Voile Manti with Hagan/ATK Pin Up shimmed to a delta of 10mm, mounted 1cm back from boot center mark, or -7 from center.
Boots:
-Skorpius 308 bsl, 12* fwd lean, small heel lift
-Zero G Peak Carbon 307 bsl, 13* fwd lean, small heel lift
-Radial Pro 317 bsl, 11* fwd lean

I'm feeling heavy on the heels, light on the mets, tips feel squirrely. Yet if I try to pressure the mets, I feel like I'm falling forward, so I lean back, can't find the balance. The boots have similar fwd leans, but the Skorpius feel like waay more lean than the Rad Pro, and more than the ZGPC. I think the Rad Pro has the flattest boot board, and is my favorite of the three.

I'm more of an old school style, pressure the tongues and tips kind of skier, have mostly skied more rearward mounted skis, although I've been trying to like more forward mounted skis. Not sure if I'm skiing them right.

Older tech bindings with high delta felt like I was falling forward, so started shimming toes. I realize 10mm delta is still pretty high. The last set-up I really clicked with was a Super Charger with a binding with 10mm delta and a Maestrale with I think 14* lean. For some reason that boot felt like the most upright of all. I seem to prefer upright boots, and have read they are good for limited ROM. But as GoldenBC pointed out, maybe that is over emphasized.

Should I go for less binding delta? Less fwd lean? Maybe fwd mounts are not for me?

fuck around find out.

No really. try adding more F lean, if that is worse, then make the boot more upright.

best to ADD a shim, as its removeable (for boot ramp and F lean)

[turnfarmer]

Generally, address the boot first and then the binding delta/canting.
In the boot address foot and ankle, above the boot addresses the body from mid shin up.

[turnfarmer]

Great thread! Lots of great info. and knowledge here. I've been thinking a lot about these things last couple years, have read Shorty J's thread and whatever else I could find here but can't quite home in on what I like.

Me:
- 6'1", 170 lbs, fairly proportional leg length to height.
- 28.5 boot size
- Somewhat limited ankle ROM. I've been told I have a boney blockage between tibia and talus.
- Pretty severe pronation.
- Large calves.
- Competent advanced skier, but not super aggressive. Mostly touring.

Ski/Binding:
- Voile Manti with Hagan/ATK Pin Up shimmed to a delta of 10mm, mounted 1cm back from boot center mark, or -7 from center.
Boots:
-Skorpius 308 bsl, 12* fwd lean, small heel lift
-Zero G Peak Carbon 307 bsl, 13* fwd lean, small heel lift
-Radial Pro 317 bsl, 11* fwd lean

I'm feeling heavy on the heels, light on the mets, tips feel squirrely. Yet if I try to pressure the mets, I feel like I'm falling forward, so I lean back, can't find the balance. The boots have similar fwd leans, but the Skorpius feel like waay more lean than the Rad Pro, and more than the ZGPC. I think the Rad Pro has the flattest boot board, and is my favorite of the three.

I'm more of an old school style, pressure the tongues and tips kind of skier, have mostly skied more rearward mounted skis, although I've been trying to like more forward mounted skis. Not sure if I'm skiing them right.

Older tech bindings with high delta felt like I was falling forward, so started shimming toes. I realize 10mm delta is still pretty high. The last set-up I really clicked with was a Super Charger with a binding with 10mm delta and a Maestrale with I think 14* lean. For some reason that boot felt like the most upright of all. I seem to prefer upright boots, and have read they are good for limited ROM. But as GoldenBC pointed out, maybe that is over emphasized.

Should I go for less binding delta? Less fwd lean? Maybe fwd mounts are not for me?

Try a heel lift first. Easiest thing to do. Limited ankle dorsiflexion is why. It will help.

Has bony blockage been confirmed on X-ray? Often what appears to be a bony blockage can be solve by this-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrSQiQrAb5E

[natebob]

Thanks Dromond. You also said something up thread that got me thinking more about fwd vs. rearward mounts. Something like how does one's mass push on the ski, where is the push coming from.

[natebob]

Try a heel lift first. Easiest thing to do. Limited ankle dorsiflexion is why. It will help.

Has bony blockage been confirmed on X-ray? Often what appears to be a bony blockage can be solve by this-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrSQiQrAb5E

Not confirmed with X-ray. That is an interesting vid - I didn't know the tib/talus joint could be manipulated like that. Thanks for posting that.

[gregL]

Interesting thought about lowering binding delta trend. When the Strive was announced, it’s was said the heel was higher than the toe, I was expecting it to be at least 5mm, but it turned out to be 3.5 mm versus the nearly 7mm of the STH2.

Hmmm. My ruler and I get 4mm delta for the MN Strives, 5mm for the GW Strives. For STH2 WTR, I get different values for 13 and 16 DIN versions (8mm and 5mm respectively).

[XXX-er]

Back in the day drinking coffee wanking about with boots in the kitchen and buddy ( experianced shop guy) said try standing in the boots with this 3/4 " stack of magazines under the toes and it felt better to get more upright so i asked what made you think of that ?

simple when you stand in those boots your ass sticks out

too much forward lean so i shimmed the toe pieces on the ski to get more upright

[skinipenem]

Back in the day drinking coffee wanking about with boots in the kitchen and buddy ( experianced shop guy) said try standing in the boots with this 3/4 " stack of magazines under the toes and it felt better to get more upright so i asked what made you think of that ?

simple when you stand in those boots your ass sticks out

so i shimmed the toe pieces on the ski to get more upright

@natebob

What xxxer said. Do this...

Put your boots on. Stand in your bed room in front of your wall to wall sex mirror. Play around with shimming under the toes and heels. See how deep you can squat without falling forwards or backwards with the various shins. Look at your sexy body in the mirror and see how your stance, in an athletic position, changes. This will give you an idea of how various deltas might affect your balance.

I agree with upthread post that a heel shim might help open up your ankle and allow for more ROM when flexing the boot. However, you may need to offset the increased ramp angle by decreasing binding delta.

I suspect you will benefit from a lower delta +/- a heel lift.

I'm not a professional bootfitter so I'm not sure how forward lean will affect your plight. For me, I like an upright boot because I can effectively increase forward lean through flexion... but I have a lot of ankle ROM.

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[XXX-er]

Duno if its relevant but as I remember the boot was a womens 4 buckle Salomon boot ( something with 8 in the model ? ) and the reason I had the womens model is because I couldn't get a mens model in size 24

edit: salomon x-wave 8

[Lord Thomas]

Thought I'd throw this figure into the conversation not to make a point but simply to add some visuals. This added a lot of clarity for me when I started playing around with different forward lean boots and binding deltas. Helped me zero in on my happy place

[turnfarmer]

Not confirmed with X-ray. That is an interesting vid - I didn't know the tib/talus joint could be manipulated like that. Thanks for posting that.

It looks like voodoo but is shockingly effective.
As a pedorthist and bootfitter ankle dorsiflexion is the 1st thing I check.
I’ve probably referred at least a hundred people to a local chiro who is good at it.
Almost all had good outcomes.

[Dromond]

Back in the day drinking coffee wanking about with boots in the kitchen and buddy ( experianced shop guy) said try standing in the boots with this 3/4 " stack of magazines under the toes and it felt better to get more upright so i asked what made you think of that ?

simple when you stand in those boots your ass sticks out

too much forward lean so i shimmed the toe pieces on the ski to get more upright

I think this is a good test, but take it to another level and step into your skis on the carpet and put shims under your toes under your skis. If you have skied for a while you can start to feel the sensation of being balanced, and playing with your ramp angle that way can help you understand if you are off of the balance point.

[beeshbeesh]

So the 30k foot view here would be that the more center mounted your ski, the more upright your stance should be? Just feels so much less athletic to me. And if I went from a Katana to a Deathwish, would almost necessitate different boots?

When I ride on a park ski with a dalbello boot the flex pattern of the boot tends to be the thing that allows me to access an athletic position, particularly as the load increases and I flex deeper into the boot.

However, when skiing the same boot on a volkl kendo (mounted +2cm) I feel like I can flex into the boot to get an optimal forward lean, but then the linear flex pattern gets me in there too deeply when carving hard, like it’s not driving as much power into the ski as I’d like and I’m worried about topping out.

Does anyone know if there is a compromise between boot flex patterns? Seems like that plays into the rest of these factors, no?

[Shorty_J]

When I ride on a park ski with a dalbello boot the flex pattern of the boot tends to be the thing that allows me to access an athletic position, particularly as the load increases and I flex deeper into the boot.

However, when skiing the same boot on a volkl kendo (mounted +2cm) I feel like I can flex into the boot to get an optimal forward lean, but then the linear flex pattern gets me in there too deeply when carving hard, like it’s not driving as much power into the ski as I’d like and I’m worried about topping out.

Does anyone know if there is a compromise between boot flex patterns? Seems like that plays into the rest of these factors, no?

I tore my Achilles skiing in a raichle/dalbello and I didn't think anything of it but I got some replies to that making me think that boot makes it more likely.

I know people complain about a hard stop in boot flex but I think having a limit might be a good thing... and I think you might need an overlap boot to have a limit.

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