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[swimmy]

Just getting caught up on this. Dang. As others have said, it could be any of us.

Thoughts to your community coming from Bozeman.

[TahoeJ]

The other puzzler...why pop new terrain on a storm day, with all of the variables that might entail. And not just wait for tomorrow, which is expected to be bluebird?TGR Forums mobile app

There’s nothing unusual about doing that - it’s not like it was dumping snow, just windy. Opening new terrain with sunny skies and warming adds just as many variables. Please stop armchair QB-ing patrol for this- sometimes shit happens and if they only opened terrain when they felt 100% confident then a lot of terrain would never open and we’d all be bitching about it.

[jackstraw]

The other puzzler...why pop new terrain on a storm day, with all of the variables that might entail. And not just wait for tomorrow, which is expected to be bluebird?

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First, it's an imperfect science as we all know.

With that said I cannot imagine anyone would open terrain without going thru their avi mitigation protocols. ...back to my first point.

Some may think that a suit would or could push for a lift/terrain to open especially with the bad press of mile long lift lines, but I doubt that could happen?

I'd like to hear Telefree's take on this situation.

[TahoeJ]

Worth noting that it was a Wednesday - there was zero pressure to get it open 3 days before the weekend crowds arrive.

[jackstraw]

Worth noting that it was a Wednesday - there was zero pressure to get it open 3 days before the weekend crowds arrive.

Great point.
With more snow coming and clearly a pretty shit snowpack, I guess some skier compaction would make sense.

[Jeb McHardman]

Great point.
With more snow coming and clearly a pretty shit snowpack, I guess some skier compaction would make sense.

That would be my guess as to why they opened it. I'm on patrol at a resort with comparable terrain to Palisades, and our control work order of operations usually looks something like 1) bomb and/or ski cut depending on avy problem, terrain, consequences, etc., 2) get patrol tracks through, 3) if the snowpack is still thin enough, get public boot/ski packers through to break up the basal facets/depth hoar (kind of a snowpack-specific issue, and I doubt Palisades has or needs a similar program...), 4) open the terrain to public (compaction). The ultimate decision to open or leave closed avalanche or avalanche-threatened terrain, as far as I can tell, is never made by management--individual route leaders, snow safety folks, and patrol directors decide that.

Does management push and prod for openings at times? Sure, but at that point you have to rely on your patrol leadership pushing back against that and, hopefully, having people in management who came from patrol or at least have an understanding of snow science/safety. We're lucky to have longtime patrollers as our COO and mountain ops director, which makes these kind of conversations relatively easy for us. I have no idea what the situation is at Palisades, but like others have said, I can't imagine that the decision to open the terrain off KT was purely a marketing/management decision.

[hutash]

Whats your threshold for wearing your backcountry gear inbounds?

I beep any day I might be skiing newly opened terrain, so most any powder day. I will also add a pack on any big day.

Having been the first skier down after an inbounds slide at Mammoth (I could have been first, but I knew the group of four boarders strapping in would have dropped right on top of me), I did the first beacon sweep before patrol got there.

[TahoeJ]

I wear a beacon inbounds anytime it snows more than 8-10 inches. I took a ride (it was slow moving heavy snow in early April so I floated on top) down Headwall face about 11-12 years ago - that was a wake up call for me at the time.

[powdork]

On a related note do we know whether trauma was the cause of death, or whether it was a burial? Was he found on top, by avy dogs, or by the probe line? etc

[GKWood]

This new snow is really making all the difference at Alpine. Looks like the winds filled in a lot of the nooks and crannies smoothing things out, and then a few light inches on top. Not deep but very rippable.
Avvy control produced a lot of big ones on terrain that hadn’t seen skier compaction yet.


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[doebedoe]

I beep inbounds anytime new snow problems are driving the danger in the local forecast and I'm planning to ski in avalanche terrain (e.g. what is the first problem in the avalanche forecast -- is it a storm or wind slab? beeping.) I also beep anytime I'm skiing terrain that hasn't been open more than a few days.

Easier for me than figuring out snow/wind thresholds and digging out that data in the AM.

[jackstraw]

On a related note do we know whether trauma was the cause of death, or whether it was a burial? Was he found on top, by avy dogs, or by the probe line? etc

My kid read somewhere trauma was the cause, but that is unverified. I'm assuming it went to ground level or close to.

[powdrhound]

I enjoy walking around the line, with mine set on receive, waiting for Cornice chair to open. Lots of beeping going on.

[2ndDivision_2.0]

My kid read somewhere trauma was the cause, but that is unverified. I'm assuming it went to ground level or close to.

Just to share what I read - from what I saw yesterday it sounds like this person was found near the bottom of the avalanche field where snow piled up to 8 feet vs only like 1-2 feet at the top of the field. Trauma def could be the cause though.

[bodywhomper]

I usually carry a beacon inbounds when there’s been new snow. I don’t kid myself about reasonable outcome if somebody needs to find my beacon.

This has been a learning experience for my Thing #1. His ski touring kit is just now dialed and I’ve been wrapping his brain around avalanche problems, avi terrain, travel, etc. The example that I have used related to it being an inexact science and mitigation is not elimination goes back to the story I remember learning about the mogul run at snowbird that slid in the middle of a night with no apparent trigger and the bed surface was a mogul run. I think that occurred in 2005 or 2006.

[umby]

I wear my beacon more and more each year. I think I wore it basically everyday I skied last season, and always when I patrolled (volunteer @ PT, but taking this season off bc I have a toddler). More often than not I just keep my beacon in a ski pant pocket (it has a loop for it to be attached to). Having it in my pocket made it something that was always there and not another layer/item to remember to put on under my patrol vest each time. I am sure some people disagree with keeping it in my pocket but it is common amongst patrol for many reasons.

Not sure how well known it is, but at PT patrol often has beacons buried for their own ad-hoc practice. Common spots are generally around the bill's boardwalk / groove tube area, and over on the skiers right side of rainbow bowl, but it varies (usually pulled out before rain / storm cycles). Public is generally welcome to practice with them as well - just stop by a patrol shack to see if any are buried on a given day and where they are (siberia and shirely patrol shacks generally are the best bets to get that info). Beacons are usually attached to the back of a plastic sign or disc before being buried so you can practice probing after you narrow it down with your beacon (don't dig them up).

[spnce]

In my experience, patrol and bystanders are on scene with beacons long before dogs or a probe line get organized. And reco seems to be a bodyfinder.

[J. Barron DeJong]

I enjoy walking around the line, with mine set on receive, waiting for Cornice chair to open. Lots of beeping going on.

^^^ He is risen!

[Angle Parking]

Awful, awful stuff.

As mentioned above, snow science is far from a science. To assume that the ski resort or heli operation or guide etc. has ensured your safety is tenuous proposition at best. 6 of the 12 avy deaths in B.C. last year were at heli ski ops under the leadership of guides.

Maybe wearing your beacon at all times isn't such a bad idea.

Respect to everyone who searched and helped. The Reddit vid of bystanders hand digging out the barely conscious individual is crazy.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Awful, awful stuff.

As mentioned above, snow science is far from a science. To assume that the ski resort or heli operation or guide etc. has ensured your safety is tenuous proposition at best. 6 of the 12 avy deaths in B.C. last year were occurred under at heli ski ops under the leadership of guides.

Maybe wearing your beacon at all times isn't such a bad idea.

Respect to everyone who searched and helped. The Reddit vid of bystanders hand digging the barely conscious individual is crazy.

Yeah, apparently a neighbor of mine was one of those digging. Fortunately their guy made it out.

[NakedShorts]

RIPE

From the Land of Woolly Mammoths

[Bunion 2020]

Great point.
With more snow coming and clearly a pretty shit snowpack, I guess some skier compaction would make sense.

My way of thinking is better to open terrain mid-week when the majority is locals with a bit of savvy. Opening terrain on a Saturday of MLK is kind of asking for it.

[old goat]

To anyone who was there--the videos I saw showed some people digging with their hands--because there weren't shovels or because they were close to a face? Seems like a lot more people ski with beacons than with shovels but as Spence pointed out, bystanders are often first on the scene. If it's avy enough for a beacon isn't it avy enough for a shovel?\\

The slide off the top of Alpine bowl was pretty impressive. My pic doesn't do it justice--should have taken it while the sun was still more east.


The snow today made you forget that skiing is a difficult sport.

[LightRanger]

To anyone who was there--the videos I saw showed some people digging with their hands--because there weren't shovels or because they were close to a face? Seems like a lot more people ski with beacons than with shovels but as Spence pointed out, bystanders are often first on the scene. If it's avy enough for a beacon isn't it avy enough for a shovel?\\

The slide off the top of Alpine bowl was pretty impressive. My pic doesn't do it justice--should have taken it while the sun was still more east.


The snow today made you forget that skiing is a difficult sport.

I wasn't there, but in response to the general question, my take is like what hutash said upthread. The step from wearing nothing to wearing a transceiver is basically not a step at all. But the step from wearing a transceiver to also wearing a pack is a significant step up in fiddle factor--especially when lifts are involved. So, to me, it's kind of a spectrum. YMMV.

[old goat]

I'm not judging. I carry a beacon without a shovel more often than not; carrying a shovel seems pretentious, which is a really dumb reason not to carry potentially life saving gear.