50 years to the day

[LeeLau]

Is the US and Israel so bad at spy craft, infiltration, propaganda, and subversion that we can’t play a long game and root these religious terrorists leaders out and show the rest a better way of life? I mean how hard can it be to trick these subhumans? Are there stocks I can buy to help this cause?

Palantir?

[Evil E]

E, who is that guy?

I know he’s speaking to EU parliament but I really don’t know who he is. I just thought his perspective and comments were worth adding to the conversation here.


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[mcphee]

Once again for all the bloodthirsty dumbfucks: all Palestinians are not bloodthirsty dumbfuck Hamas fighters.

Go fight those actual Hamas fighters there tough guys. Big tough army guys that are part of the biggest and most expensive militaries in the world. Instead they’re bombing the shit out of whoever is nearby from the comfort of a cubicle.

[summit]

Once again for all the bloodthirsty dumbfucks: all Palestinians are not bloodthirsty dumbfuck Hamas fighters.

Go fight those actual Hamas fighters there tough guys. Big tough army guys that are part of the biggest and most expensive militaries in the world. Instead they’re bombing the shit out of whoever is nearby from the comfort of a cubicle.

Wait, so you would prefer the IDF go into house to house urban combat mode? That's quite a twist.

Tell Hamas terrorists to come out from behind their Palestinian human shields and meet on the field of battle so the fight can be "fair" and "clean." I'm sure the IDF will be happy to meet them.

Hamas designed the options that the Israelis can chose from so that all choices are awful for the Palestinians because Hamas is past not caring about the Palestinians: Hamas actually invites and relishes Palestinian casualties because they view dead Palestinians as victory points in their PR strategy and call them "martyrs." Precision strikes, usually with warning, are probably the least awful (least collateral damage) of the awful options available to attack Hamas. Fucking horrible, but what do you expect from Hamas whose own offensive strategy is intentional slaughter, rape, torture and kidnapping of innocent civilians.

[JimmyCarter]

The Amnesty report confuses me. It points out Israeli laws discriminating against Palestinians. But Palestinians are not synonomous with Israeli citizens and you're allowed to discriminate against non citizens.

I thought apartheid is discrimination against citizens of your own country surely?

I don’t think citizenship ever comes into play because it’s just a legal definition that can be manipulated to justify the racial segregation
Eg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bant...ship_Act,_1970

[ex-powderbroker]

right, because SA had apartheid and it is not a facsimile to Israel.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Kabub

[mcphee]

Wait, so you would prefer the IDF go into house to house urban combat mode? That's quite a twist.

Tell Hamas terrorists to come out from behind their Palestinian human shields and meet on the field of battle so the fight can be "fair" and "clean." I'm sure the IDF will be happy to meet them.

Hamas designed the options that the Israelis can chose from so that all choices are awful for the Palestinians because Hamas is past not caring about the Palestinians: Hamas actually invites and relishes Palestinian casualties because they view dead Palestinians as victory points in their PR strategy and call them "martyrs." Precision strikes, usually with warning, are probably the least awful (least collateral damage) of the awful options available to attack Hamas. Fucking horrible, but what do you expect from Hamas whose own offensive strategy is intentional slaughter, rape, torture and kidnapping of innocent civilians.

Just can’t imagine any scenario that doesn’t involve carpet bombing civilians? Some strategist you are. Baby binary brain. Fuck all the way off.

[JimmyCarter]

right, because SA had apartheid and it is not a facsimile to Israel.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Kabub

Well that sure clears things up!

[summit]

Millions of Arab, Muslim, Bedouin, Druze, Christian, Assyrians, atheists, Caucasians, Asians, Persians, Africans, and other ethnic and religious categories you might use are citizens of Israel with all the same rights to serve in the Israeli gov/mil, vote, and pick a profession as someone who is a Jewish citizen.

How's that going for Jews, or even non-Muslims, under Hamas control? Start with freedom of speech? Freedom of worship?

[summit]

Just can’t imagine any scenario that doesn’t involve carpet bombing civilians? Some strategist you are. Baby binary brain. Fuck all the way off.

I have never suggested carpet bombing. That's horrible.

Hamas establishes bases and arms caches in churches, mosques, hospitals, schools, and apartments as a means to use the social and emotional value of these sites, and the civilians who are there, as shields. They even fire rockets from these sites.

So how would you target Hamas? Or are you only capable of criticizing?

[mcski]

In the last two years, a former Israeli AG AND a former head of Mossad have both said that Israel has met the definitions of an apartheid state. Not the final word in the debate, but those two positions are telling. It’s not exactly like it was in SA, but the protestations and justifications of the label are pretty similar. Quack quack

[mcphee]

I have never suggested carpet bombing. That's horrible.

Hamas establishes bases and arms caches in churches, mosques, hospitals, schools, and apartments as a means to use the social and emotional value of these sites, and the civilians who are there, as shields. They even fire rockets from these sites.

So how would you target Hamas? Or are you only capable of criticizing?

You say you’re not suggesting carpet bombing although that’s exactly what they’re doing and you’re cool with it. You don’t drop 6000 bombs in a week and call all of them precision guided target intended. Impossible.

My first order of business is to minimize all civilian casualties. Send in 1st recon teams. Gather intelligence, pay people to snitch, evacuate civilians, kill people with the guns and rockets. If you can’t stomach sending people or going into the shit yourself to fight the actual baddies, then what the fuck did you actually sign up for?

[bodywhomper]

My understanding is that rights vary in Israel based on ethnic group. For instance, disproportionate more Druze in their parliament based on the groups population and only Druze men are required to serve in the military. I only know this because of a friend who is Dru. IDK about other groups.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I have never suggested carpet bombing. That's horrible.

Hamas establishes bases and arms caches in churches, mosques, hospitals, schools, and apartments as a means to use the social and emotional value of these sites, and the civilians who are there, as shields. They even fire rockets from these sites.

So how would you target Hamas? Or are you only capable of criticizing?

How would you target Hamas? Serious here, I’m not trying to stir the pot.


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[MontuckyFried]

Since 2-state solutions are completely off the table for the overwhelming majority of Palestinians according to recent polling data, let's run two different hypothetical winner takes all scenarios and be honest.

Would the ethnically "Arab," religious Muslims be better off under:
(A) Palestine (which will obv be led by either PLO or Hamas, or even some theoretical new governing body)
(B) Israel as is

Now let's flip the scenario and say Israel cedes ALL the land to Palestine, saying "Fuckit. Here. It's all yours. Happy now?"
Would the Jewish people and other religions, regardless of ethnicity be better off under:
(A) Palestine
(B) Israel

Quoting myself because I'd still love for somebody to answer this winner takes all hypothetical since Palestine ain't interested in 2-state. At all. Particularly our bleeding heart friends here who view Israel as wrong-doing colonizing oppressors. Fine. Have that opinion, folks. You're welcome to think whatever you want, but still want somebody to answer this.

And how about we take the above scenarios yet a step further with a follow-up, shall we?
Would LGBT+ people be better off living in:
(A) Palestine
(B) Israel

[queue Jeopardy theme]

[cspringsposer]

If you can’t stomach sending people or going into the shit yourself to fight the actual baddies, then what the fuck did you actually sign up for?

I don't know anything about you and am not trying to be a dick, but this sounds like something someone who has never had to conduct an urban assault would say. I don't wish that mission on anybody and I truly pity the civilians who will be slaughtered in the crossfire.

[MultiVerse]

In the last two years, a former Israeli AG AND a former head of Mossad have both said that Israel has met the definitions of an apartheid state. Not the final word in the debate, but those two positions are telling. It’s not exactly like it was in SA, but the protestations and justifications of the label are pretty similar. Quack quack

The most important difference between the African National Congress (ANC) and Hamas is not the question of terrorism, it's their goals. The ANC's goal, like the Civil Rights movement in American, was ending racial segregation mainly by establishing equal voting rights for everyone regardless of skin color. Hamas' goal is the destruction of Israel. That's what the chant "from the river to the sea" means. It''s a rallying cry to remove all Jews from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.

[mcski]

PR was never the Palestinians strong suit. They’re like the George Costanza of strategic PR decision makers

[MultiVerse]

They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

The dumbest thing about bad myth-making bloodthirsty colonialism arguments is that it causes people to align with genocidal theocratic death cults. If they thought it through they'd realize spinning ultra-revolutionary rhetoric puts Palestinians on the road to oblivion. Hamas raped, kidnapped, tortured, and murdered a bunch of Israelis to spark a massive retaliation. This is what ultra-orthodox Hamas wants and this is what ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel want: theology and holy wars.

[ex-powderbroker]

PR hasn’t never the Palestinians strong suit. They’re like the George Costanza of strategic PR decision makers

seems like their PR is working fine

[summit]

You say you’re not suggesting carpet bombing although that’s exactly what they’re doing and you’re cool with it. You don’t drop 6000 bombs in a week and call all of them precision guided target intended. Impossible.

I suggest you read into what carpet bombing is. It is horrific. It is better known as saturation bombing (or very similarly, area bombing). Carpet bombing is massive amounts of unguided weapons dropped by formations of bombers to indiscriminately destroy a large area, typically a large region of a city or an entire city. If you want to know what it looks like, see Chungking 1938, Barcelona 1938, London & Coventry 1940, Dresden & Hamburg, Tokyo and most Japanese cities in 1945, and most North Korean cities during the Korean War. I've studied it extensively. I can recommend books. If you want raw history, start with the USSBS Summary Reports both for European and Pacific theaters (these total only 50 pages). If you want fiction, Slaughterhouse Five by Vonnegut is a place to start. Once you understand what carpet bombing is, you'll understand why it is a travesty and hyperbole to call Israel's air attacks "carpet bombing."

The most recent accusation with merit of carpet bombing was Russian bomber formations dropping 300,000lbs of unguided bombs (often cluster bombs) on Syrian cities in each bombing raid. Russian mass indiscriminate artillery bombardment of Ukranian cities is on par with area bombing in places like Mariupol.

Precision bombing is the opposite of carpet bombing. Israel uses mostly 250lb GPS guided SDBs to target a specific building or part of a specifically building, attempting to distinguish between targets, employing weapons discriminately as possible. People still die. It's terrible. FAR less die than with carpet bombing. Precision bombing is why Hamas locates their weapons and operations in the most vulnerable and dense civilian locations, because otherwise Hamas couldn't ensure civilian casualties occur too. It's horrible.

My first order of business is to minimize all civilian casualties. Send in 1st recon teams. Gather intelligence, pay people to snitch, evacuate civilians, kill people with the guns and rockets. If you can’t stomach sending people or going into the shit yourself to fight the actual baddies, then what the fuck did you actually sign up for?

Your assumption is that they haven't already been gathering intelligence and paying people to snitch?

How are you going to "evacuate the civilians?" Remember, Hamas has forbidden this and actively blocked it. What happen when Hamas mixes in suicide bombers and shooters with the civilians?

Do you think Hamas is looking to fight a battle on an open field away from a city? Surely you know that is not the case.... so do you actually believe that going into house to house urban combat with troops, machine guns, mortars, rockets, tanks, and artillery is going to result in a lower death count and less destruction for Palestinians that precision airstrikes? Do you know anything about the last 100 years of urban combat?

I refer you to cspringsposer's reply.

[highangle]

I don't know anything about you and am not trying to be a dick, but this sounds like something someone who has never had to conduct an urban assault would say. I don't wish that mission on anybody and I truly pity the civilians who will be slaughtered in the crossfire.

Bro Hamas put a $10,000 bounty on live captives 10/7 so their middle management will have Jewish kids to hide behind, but you gotta give them a pass for that since they're Native Americans who can't get by on tracking wages.

[MultiVerse]

seems like their PR is working fine

It's not, though. It's condescending. It's the same old ugly racial stereotype Arab Muslims are only capable of addressing repression through violence. Their ideas are toxic and absurd.

[Toadman]

Once again for all the bloodthirsty dumbfucks: all Palestinians are not bloodthirsty dumbfuck Hamas fighters.

Go fight those actual Hamas fighters there tough guys. Big tough army guys that are part of the biggest and most expensive militaries in the world. Instead they’re bombing the shit out of whoever is nearby from the comfort of a cubicle.

The reason big bad militaries designed weapons to use while sitting on the couch at home, is so you don't risk your own life while waging war against terrorists. So a few innocent civilians get killed while eating hummus and crackers. That's how big tough army guys roll these days. Terrorists need to get with the 21st century and do the same from the comfort of their tunnel network.

[summit]

How would you target Hamas? Serious here, I’m not trying to stir the pot.

A fair question and honestly, I don’t see a good solution is. In fact, the only thing I am confident about is that there probably are no good solutions. I only know a little about this topic, quite a bit about a few facets of it, but I’m just one more non-expert internet poster in this thread.

I really think Israel was on the right path with respect to normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia and other Arab nations. I think this was the path to sideline and defund Hamas. But that is exactly why Hamas (and Iran) orchestrated Oct 7.

But you question stands: What can be done now?

Precision airstrikes can target Hamas leadership, stockpiles, rocket construction, and terror capabilities/training, but up to a point. There will be civilians killed as collateral because that is how Hamas has designed the battlefield. There are diminishing returns on these strikes.... then what? The problem is that while Hamas has all those babies, women, and grandmas as hostages, it is very hard for Israel to back off.

It is also very hard for Israel to just isolate themselves from Gaza because the distances are so small, not to mention so many Gazans work in Israel, Israel is then subject to accusations of keeping Gazans in Gaza right or wrong. Hamas proved that it can still strike horrifically at Israel despite Iron Dome and military checkpoints.

I really do NOT think an IDF ground invasion is going to solve Hamas or help Israel. An urban warfare debacle is exactly what Hamas wants. I don't think an international force or even an Arab league force would dare clean out Hamas from Gaza even if they could. Hamas has ensconced themselves as lords of Gaza. The Gazans chose Hamas, but now Hamas gives the Gazans little choice. Gaza has to want to be free of Hamas but can they free themselves even if they wanted? Hamas needs to be weakened from within and without, militarily, politically, and fiscally. That takes the Arab nations, the West, the Israelis, and the Gazans working together.

Part of the solution must be neutering Iran's ability to sponsor terror. They are the #1 sponsor of terrorism in the world. That is a tough nut to crack.