Aluminum vs Steel

[Spencer123]

I am in the market for a hardtail frame to build up over the winter to compliment my ripmo. There is a lot of riding near me in SLC that is 4-6 miles from my house on the road so I am hoping to get some faster rolling XC tires and have a from the house machine. The riding is a mix of mellow singletrack with some steep chunky sections. Might also use it for longer alpine adventures here and there.

Originally I was sold on the Nukeproof scout but while waiting for them to come back in stock I am realizing some people are pretty strong advocate of steel. I am open to a variety of different frames depending on what I find used for a good price (definitely a budget/leftover parts project) but was wondering what people’s experiences are with aluminum frames. are they really significantly harsher than steel or is the lighter weight worth it?

I’ve been watching for a scout 290, chameleon, honz st, or Canfield nimble 9, so any experience with any of those bikes would also be super appreciated!

Thanks.
-Spencer

[bagtagley]

Compliance is really something that comes into play after hours in the saddle and is a bigger factor on road bikes than mountain bikes. Hauling ass through some crud, steel, Ti, or aluminum, they’re all gonna kick your butt, in a good way.

I think a more important decision is, do you want long travel ala Chromag, or short travel ala BTR. I prefer shorter travel and I run my fork super stiff. IMO the slacker the better.

And FTR I run steel because I like the look of the smaller tubes, it can be fixed, it’s quieter, but mostly I just like steel bikes.

[Toddball]

I run steel because I like the look of the smaller tubes, it can be fixed, it’s quieter, but mostly I just like steel bikes.

Same, especially the last point. Also, most frames with sliding dropouts are steel (or Ti), so if you want to singlespeed without a tensioner you'll have fewer aluminum options.

Compliance, which is usually the first benefit pointed out by steel bike fans, is also dependent on tube sizing, butting, etc. You can try to do all the research you can into what tubes are being used where on which frame, but that's a lot of work. Some reviews will point out whether a frame is particularly stiff or not. My metric is that frames reviewed on NSMB are probably stiff, and frames reviewed on The Radavist are probably on the noodly side.

[toast2266]

Compliance, which is usually the first benefit pointed out by steel bike fans, is also dependent on tube sizing, butting, etc.

To add to that: cheaper steel frames (e.g. nimble 9) are more likely to be stiff. The difference in ride quality between that and an equivalently priced aluminum frame are probably gonna be fairly small.

[chaka]

one of my favorite 'feeling' bikes ever is my bianchi SASS , chromoly steel. And I'm fortunate enough to have ti and other steel bikes (cx) in the quiver. Steel IS Real.

[joetron]

Esker has some chromoly frames on sale now. $650 vs $1000regularly.


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[Touring_Sedan]

I've thoroughly enjoyed my Chromag Rootdown along the Wasatch Front.

[carlh]

I have an older scout 290 for my xc and muddy ride bike built with a 140 pike. I serves me well and is not super stiff compared to my gnarvana big bike. Set up with fastish tires and it is a lot shorter (480 vs 500mm reach) than the big bike so it’s a nice mix.
I agree on the slack head angle and you don’t need a super steep seat angle for a pedally hardtail since they don’t sag in back. Buy what has good geometry for what you want and can get for a good price.

[ZomblibulaX]

Newer AL hardtails have gotten a lot better at not throttling you, the ride quality (on many, not all) has improved pretty dramatically over the last several years vs steel. That said, steel really is real.

Per the bikes you're looking at:
-Haven't been on the new Chameleon, the previous iteration that I rode felt like riding pin bindings at the resort. Checking my fillings at the bottom of the trail feeling. That said, the new model sounds like it's pretty much what you're looking for.
-Honzo ST is greatly improved over the original, IMO. Lighter, good compliance without feeling flexy in the turns. Great party bike, I was pretty close to picking one up.
-I was shopping hard for a Nimble 9 last year to replace my old TransAm, and I'm glad I got the chance to get out on one before I bit the bullet. They build up light, and the geo feels good, but I didn't like the ride quality over my cromo HT. It wasn't harsh like aluminum per se, but it wasn't locked in in corners and felt skittish at speed. Some of that was the fork (MRP Ribbon). If you're not going to be thrashing it, I am sure it would be fine, I'm just a hack and I felt like it was going to fold on me. I'm certain it wouldn't have, I'm not that rad.

And...
Hardtail Party Youtube Channel

If you're looking for thorough reviews. Steve does a great job of breaking down what works and what doesn't, it's worth a trip down the rabbit hole.

[Meconium]

Is Spencer small or big?

[sfotex]

Why not carbon? I've picked up 2 nice carbon hardtails off KSL this summer for $500 or less. If your running fast xc tires your going to be limiting your speed in the chunder anyways (I pushed the limits on light tire this summer, they exploderized on multiple Snowbird big mountain laps..) so a more XC geometry isn't that big of a deal..

(as a side note, I'm drinking a Salt Flats Lowrider choco stout as I type this, and the aluminum can has one of those chinesium faux carbon prints on it)

[meepmoop24]

I may have a 2021 Honzo ST frame size large for sale soon. Fun bike but the terrain where I live now is not suited to a hardtail (or I'm just too soft). PM me if interested.

[Spencer123]

Thank you everyone for all the replies. This is super helpful! I hadn’t thought about carbon because I just assumed it was a much more expensive route and didn’t know much about the no-name cheaper frames out there. I am a large.

I do like the idea of a slacker bike and a more upright pedaling position similar to my full suspension just for cruising comfort instead of aggressive XC. Makes sense about not needing super rowdy geometry though if I am using Ikon/ardent.

Meepmoop- will get in touch.

[El Chupacabra]

Plenty of cheap choices if light and XC oriented is what you're after.

Awhile ago, I built a light XC ish 29er around a generic carbon hardtail frame. I rode it maybe twice before selling it. It was brutally stiff. That pretty much turned me off to any carbon hardtail.

My preference these days is more to steel hardtails, with tires that favor grip over low rolling resistance.

[SchralphMacchio]

I don’t have any experience with modern AL hardtails. I’m on a boutique steel frame (Guerilla Gravity) running 29x2.6” and a 150mm fork. I have nothing but good things to say about the handling of the frame on shaped gravity trails and chundery steeps alike, but my frame does use a highly customized rectangular cross section tubing that no one else in the industry seems to use.

Largely owing to sentimentality, I found a Pike dual position air boost fork, figuring that it would allow my bike to have two personalities, one for more mellow trails (or climbs) and one for steeper trails. I’m not looking for the best hard charging performance, so for my purposes the Jekyll and Hyde fork (120/150) has worked well for me, I think unsagged head angles are like 66.5/65 at the relative fork lengths, or maybe 0.5 steeper, hard to say, it feels fine.

Oval chainring was a huge upgrade with a hardtail, as even torque output / rear wheel traction is tricky on a hardtail! Speaking of traction, I went with 200mm front and rear rotors because, man rear wheel traction on rocky steep descents is really not great on a hardtail, I would suggest planning on oval ring and the most badass / best modulating brakes you are willing to spend money on from the getgo.

I built mine up with 35mm rims for 2.6" tires … midsummer traction is fantastic (when the rear is mostly planted on the ground anyways) and I run half spikes (2.6" Hillbillies) in the winter. Tire pressure on a hardtail is even more of a fine balance to soften chatter / increase traction while still providing high speed sidewall support appropriate for the trail. I went 35mm/2.6 over 30mm/2.4 to be able to run slightly lower pressures, seems like it’s helping since peeps on FS bikes are often asking why I’m on my hardtail on technical trails (my wife rides my FS when we ride together, she gets a better ride and I get a better workout).

I have no issues riding this bike on semi-technical / big vert shuttles and steep alpine rides in Oregon (Ashland, Oakridge, Alsea, Bend, etc) … but I would never use it for long rides. My quad-calf rear suspension just can't hang on for that long, so my carbon FS trail bike is so much less tiring on longer rides.

Not sure if these thoughts are helpful, but I hope some of them are!

[beaterdit]

I've got current gen Nimble Nine.

Love the bike but I wouldn't say it's particularly forgiving. The curved seatstays may take a bit of the edge off but it doesn't seem like much. I've got a 150 fork, proper 2.5 rubber, and Codes on it. Not a light build, 32.5ish pounds IIRC. It'll handle most any terrain but I wish it was a degree or two slacker in the head tube. IMO bigger tires are pretty essential for comfort on a hardtail. Obviously not racing it.

It's a medium but you can take it for a spin if you'd like. Hit me up.

[Spencer123]

This is all super helpful, I appreciate all the input (and the test ride offer BeaterIt, super kind). The Scout 290 frames came back into stock, and while it was pondering it they almost sold-out again so I grabbed one. They did a first-responder discount and are right near my house in SLC so was kind of psyched on that.

Looking forward to building it up! The tips on tires forks etc are great. Will post it up when it's done.

-Spencer

[Peruvian]

I don’t have any recommendations but this thread needs more pics!

[Dantheman]

I don’t have any recommendations but this thread needs more pics!

Here's mine. Ragley Mmmbop, it's a riot. 27 lbs. Ragley makes the exact same frame in steel and it weighs like 3 lbs more. I've never ridden that version but I think I'd prefer the 3 lbs over compliance.

Eta: For beaterdit, it's even over-forked slightly at 160 mm, so about a 63.5* HTA

[beaterdit]

I don’t have any recommendations but this thread needs more pics!

His:


Hers:

[toast2266]

Aluminum vs steel questions aside, the best advice re: hardtails I've seen (iirc from HAB) is to go slacker and get the bottom bracket lower than you think you should. Full suspension geometry doesn't really translate to hardtails. Once you're sagged, the head tube is ~1.5° steeper than stated. And the bottom bracket doesn't settle in nearly as much, so it can be pretty low.

A slacked out "aggressive" hardtail still feels reasonably sporty on the climbs. But a super steep xc-ish hardtail is sketchy as fuck on the descents.

[beaterdit]

^^^^
This is what I wish I knew when I bought my hardtail. There are plenty of 64 degree HA hardtails out there but I thought it was unnecessary for that application. It might be in the strict sense but it sure would be nice when it gets steep and you're on the brakes. I run the fork a lot stiffer on it than I do on my big bike, like minimal to zero seated sag. Still though.

[SchralphMacchio]

Funny, I run my HT fork softer but more progressive, just to get it moving as quickly as possible over chatter but also not dive and steepen the geo rapidly on bigger hits.

[toast2266]

Funny, I run my HT fork softer but more progressive, just to get it moving as quickly as possible over chatter but also not dive and steepen the geo rapidly on bigger hits.

Same. Soft-ish off the top. But then a bunch of volume reducers in it to keep it from getting crushed when I nose into things hard (which I do a lot, since it's the only suspension I've got).

[Wes Mantooth]

I've learned that steel being more compliant than aluminum isn't a universal rule, so take that into account. I rode a steel singlespeed for a while and recently built up an aluminum Chameleon and it honestly feels softer than the steel I rode in the past. As others have said what really makes it feel more forgiving is getting a slacker head angle and a decent amount of travel in the front. From my experience it'll still feel extremely quick and fast on climbs if you're used to a mid-travel full suspension. I got a Chameleon 7 29" and put a 140 fork on it and it rides great with no issues climbing. Newer v8 has an ever slacker head angle so I bet it's a super fun ride