Crystal Mountain Becomes Alterra

[Buster Highmen]

No, it is not that at all. This ground has been plowed many times and still nothing productive grows.

So it goes. Oh and sounds like Pebble Mine is dead, at least for now.

I know I'm not so bright, but those two statements seem at odds with each other.

Carry On!

[The AD]

The PNW is different. Unlike resorts in the Rockies, our ski areas are surrounded by National Forests with very little private land. Our ski resorts aren't at old mining towns, but are in the middle of the woods at the end of narrow dead end roads. The snow is inconsistent. They are not conducive to big, destination, development.

You mean sort of like LCC, BCC, and Big Sky? Oh....

I agree there are differences, but not sure those differences are enough.

[altasnob]

You mean sort of like LCC, BCC, and Big Sky? Oh....

I agree there are differences, but not sure those differences are enough.

You're really arguing that Big Sky is just like Crystal? Big Sky is surrounded by private land, roads, homes, and development. There is a 100% private ski area right next door (Yellowstone Club). I believe a large part of the skiiable acres of Big Sky is on private property, not Forest Service land. Crystal is nearly completely surrounded by wilderness, which includes a National Park. Big Sky has some wilderness nearby, but it does not come right up to the ski area boundary as it does at Crystal. Big Sky is a much closer comparison to Deer Valley, with homes sprawling endlessly up the hillside, than Crystal. Even if Bill Gates bought Crystal tomorrow and wanted to turn it into Big Sky, he couldn't, because Crystal is on 100% Forest Service land. There are specks of private land but they are all owned by other entities and the total amount of private land is very small. Other ski areas in the PNW, have no private land of any kind (like Bachelor and Meadows).

The reason Rockies ski areas are shopping malls for the masses, and PNW resorts are core is because back in the 1800s, mining was much bigger in the Rockies than in the Cascades. There was mining in the Cascades but the dense vegetation made it harder for prospectors to identify valuable ore. These mining claims in the Rockies became private property and today, are now McMansions and ski areas on private land. We don't (and can't) have that in the PNW. We're also more restrictive on development in blue states like WA and OR than red states like UT, MT, and recently purpled CO. It's no coincident that one of the biggest ski area development plans that got killed by the courts was in WA (Early Winters Ski Area).

Kircher was a rich dude from Michigan trying to turn Crystal into Big Sky. Alterra are corporate dickheads from CO and CA trying to do the same thing. They're out of town developers.

[The AD]

I was talking more about being at the end of narrow, dead end roads.

Also, because the land is public now, does that mean it's going to be public for perpetuity? I'll admit privatizing the land in Washington would probably be a more fraught process than in places like Montana or Utah.

[Bunion 2020]

Big Sky has some wilderness nearby, but it does not come right up to the ski area boundary as it does at Crystal.

Would you just fucking stop spewing bullshit when it is so easy to have a look before you show what an idiot you are.

There is a wilderness boundary and 2 different USFS boundaries that directly abut Big Sky operating boundary.

And saying "some wilderness nearby" is so fucking stupid I don't even know where to begin.

And FWIW at one time a large part of Big Sky was on USFS land and operated under a special use permit. Then there was a land swap and now, yes Big Sky is 100% private land as well as the Y/C.

[Greydon Clark]

The toothpaste isn't going back in the tube.

[altasnob]

There is no way in our lifetimes National Forests, let alone wilderness areas and National Parks get privatized. Most likely not in our children's, children's lifetimes. It would require acts of Congress and can't be done at the state level I know there are goofballs like Sen Mike Lee that throw that out but it's universally disfavored. Even right wing hunters and fisherman appreciate their wilderness and National Forests.

Big Sky may be on a spur dead end road off a main highway but that highway goes on to West Yellowstone, which is winter destination of itself. There is no access to Rainier National Park in the winter off of 410 unless you like hiking on highways for miles.

LCC/BCC in Utah have much more private land than Crystal as well. Yes, they are on dead end roads and have wilderness nearby. But I know part of Snowbird is on private land and believe the rest include some private land. Alta has houses up into the ski area on private land (much more than Crystal at Gold Hills). And LCC/BCC is a stones throw from a major metro. It also doesn't rain there much. It's also in Utah, which loves development. No surprise those resorts are major tourist destinations.

[The AD]

There is no way in our lifetimes National Forests, let alone wilderness areas and National Parks get privatized. Most likely not in our children's, children's lifetimes. It would require acts of Congress and can't be done at the state level I know there are goofballs like Sen Mike Lee that throw that out but it's universally disfavored. Even right wing hunters and fisherman appreciate their wilderness and National Forests.

Yet Trump privatized 2 million acres in the Bear Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monuments just a few years ago. Never say never. National Monuments are different, of course, but selloffs of public land do happen.

Is there a map somewhere that shows the inholdings nears Crystal Mountain? I'd be curious to see how much private land there actually is.

[altasnob]

Would you just fucking stop spewing bullshit when it is so easy to have a look before you show what an idiot you are.

There is a wilderness boundary and 2 different USFS boundaries that directly abut Big Sky operating boundary.

And saying "some wilderness nearby" is so fucking stupid I don't even know where to begin.

And FWIW at one time a large part of Big Sky was on USFS land and operated under a special use permit. Then there was a land swap and now, yes Big Sky is 100% private land as well as the Y/C.

I did look, and upon close inspection, there is wilderness that goes to near the summit of Loan Peak. But it appears Big Sky is all on private land. Does Big Sky lease any part of USFS land?

Crystal is on 100% leased USFS land. Mt. Rainier National Park borders the ski area, and is wilderness. And then Norse Peak Wilderness is on the other side of the valley. The entire drive up Crystal Mountain Boulevard is 100% USFS land.

I grew up skiing WA and OR. Lived in CO and UT and was amazed at what a different ski experience it is in the Rockies. I moved back to the PNW to get away from that experience.

Edit: Looks like a few lifts at Big Sky (formerlly Moonlight) are on leased USFS land. But the majority is on private land. Everything left of the purple line is USFS. Right of it is private. The only wilderness is that little pie slice at Loan Peak summit. The sprawling McMansions and development is all on the private land.

[altasnob]

Yet Trump privatized 2 million acres in the Bear Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monuments just a few years ago. Never say never. National Monuments are different, of course, but selloffs of public land do happen.

He didn't privatize it. It was federally owned BLM land and Obama made it a National Monument. Trump undid parts of that National Monument. But it just went back to being federally owned BLM land. Companies can lease BLM land for resource extraction and grazing, but that doesn't make it private land.

The only times in US history that I am aware that we privatized Forest Service, National Park, or BLM land was for minor land swaps. The government gave up some land and got some land in return. I've seen this occur around Tribal reservations. It takes a Congressional Act, requiring 60 senate votes to overcome filibuster, and then the president must sign. That's why it never happens.

[Bunion 2020]

Edit: Looks like a few lifts at Big Sky (formerlly Moonlight) are on leased USFS land. But the majority is on private land. Everything left of the purple line is USFS. Right of it is private. The sprawling McMansions and development is all on the private land.

Nope, your map reading skills kind of suck or your map choice is questionable. Moonlight was formed by the acquisition of around 18K acres of land, some was USFS and the vast majority was checker boarded land granted to the railroads and then sold to logging interests. The USFS land was swapped for other land and it was privatized.

The only times in US history that I am aware that we privatized Forest Service, National Park, or BLM land was for minor land swaps. The government gave up some land and got some land in return. I've seen this occur around Tribal reservations.

And then you double down?

Read, learn then spew.

https://www.google.com/search?client...ral+lands#ip=1

I am far from happy with how Big Sky has turned out and I had a hand in that and will accept some blame. You continue your circle jerk about Crystal.

[The AD]

We've had this discussion before when the topic of attempting to expand the lift-served terrain in Washington has come up. Seems like the overwhelming consensus was that it would be much easier to expand currently operating areas than trying to open a brand new area. I'm sure Alterra would make that argument for any Crystal expansion plans: the additional infrastructure is needed to better serve a growing snowsports populations in Western Washington.

[XavierD]

I didn’t see eye to eye with JK on many things, but he did smoke me on one of my best all time pow runs down exterminator, and I consistently saw him doing the front line jobs on the mountain when it got busy or a Jr employee needed a lunch break. For that he, and his memory will always have my respect. RIP


Some of you need to let go of your fantasies about what public land is and isn’t, or should be. With some effort you could probably get a year round lodge at Sunrise operating with snow cat access like there is into the park out of West Yellowstone. I don’t think there is the market for it right now. We currently have two ski areas (maybe down to one?) still operating inside National Parks. The others shut down not to protect the parks, but due to low traffic, just like the Paradise Gate. Regardless we do see commercial businesses operating inmost national parks. Not all commercialization or increase in access of public land is bad. As experienced users, many of us adopt a gatekeeping mentality to the outdoors, and cry foul when the failing businesses we rely on make changes to attract more, and often better paying customers. All without ever bothering to see if the books were alright. There is still plenty of easy access to relatively untouched terrain right outside of Crystal. There will be when it expands. I miss the old northway and northway shuttle too, it’s ok.

[altasnob]

Nope, your map reading skills kind of suck or your map choice is questionable. Moonlight was formed by the acquisition of around 18K acres of land, some was USFS and the vast majority was checker boarded land granted to the railroads and then sold to logging interests. The USFS land was swapped for other land and it was privatized.

Land swaps. Not selling off federal land for development. It appears a large chunk of Moonlight was on private land, even before the land swap. The land swap was to get rid of the checker board private tracts, which makes sense because they are stupid and are not beneficial to the feds or the private land owner.

I still have never heard of the feds selling land so a mega ski area can be developed, which is what AD was getting at.

Because Crystal is on 100% leased land, all of their development plans must be contained in 2004's master development plan. If they want to add something to that plan, they have to submit a whole new Environmental Impact Statement and get it approved. Big difference from Big Sky, where they can essentially do whatever they want.

[Bunion 2020]

Move them goal posts!

Can federal land be sold?
A: The answer is yes. Lands identified as excess to the Federal Government's needs or more suited to private ownership are sometimes offered for sale. The Federal Government has two major property categories which it makes available for sale: real property and public land.

https://realestatesales.gov/gsaauctions/gsaauctions/

Here is the thing, you are making statements based on what you believe is true or wish was true.

That Moonlight land swap was a part of a complicated land deal that cleaned up some checkerboards and boundaries. There was no Moonlight prior to that land deal. The area was owned by Plum Creek timber and Burlington Northern and Big Sky Lumber company (no relation to Big Sky ski area). Then there was the land swap that gave Big Sky the terrain they now own.

Currently there is another land swap in the works that will add additional ski acreage to the Y/C if it goes through, odds are 50/50.

[The AD]

We currently have two ski areas (maybe down to one?) still operating inside National Parks.

Still two: Badger Pass in Yosemite and Hurricane Ridge in Olympic.

[PNWbrit]

Is there a map somewhere that shows the inholdings nears Crystal Mountain? I'd be curious to see how much private land there actually is.

Basically it's just the properties at the top of Gold Hills and the Alpine Inn.

I'm also amused about all these western Washington resorts being at the end of narrow dead end roads. Like Snoqualmie, Stevens & White?

And Crystal now being fireproof.

Alta is on a roll.

[altasnob]

And Crystal now being fireproof.

If Kircher sold Crystal because he was afraid of fire he has no business owning any ski area in the Western lower 48. The only ski area I can think of with less fire risk than Crystal is Baker. The only recorded time in WA history a fire went over the Cascade crest was the Norse Peak fire. So while not impossible, it is highly unlikely. And if you look at where a fire would come from to get to Crystal, Union Creek and Crow Creek would be the most likely path. That's burned so a fire won't come out from that route. A massive fire is unlikely in Morse Creek as the lower flanks burned in the Norse Peak fire. And while it is theoretically possible to have a fire from White River/Crystal Lakes, those forests haven't burned for a thousand years, possibly ever. The Bolt Creek fire last summer that was smoking us out was actually very small and was burning steep, Southern exposed forests.

After the trees grow back, East Peak could burn again but that's 100 years out.

[altasnob]

The others shut down not to protect the parks, but due to low traffic, just like the Paradise Gate.

What ski areas that were in National Parks have closed due to low traffic? As AD points out, the only two I know of are still there.

Paradise Gate isn't closed weekdays due to low traffic but due to funding and staffing issues. It's supposed to be open 7 days a week next winter.

With some effort you could probably get a year round lodge at Sunrise operating with snow cat access like there is into the park out of West Yellowstone.

There often isn't enough snow on 410 to run a snowcat to Sunrise in the winter. And no parking where the park begins on 410. And it's 23 miles from the park gate to Sunrise. That would be a really long snowcat ride.

What I would like to see, and think is somewhat feasible, is plow the road to White River campground in winter and then partner with a concessionaire to run private shuttles from Enumclaw to the White River Campground. There's not much parking there, and no lodge, so I don't think opening it up to private vehicles makes sense. But the park can barely keep Paradise open so this will never happen.

[XavierD]

Paradise for one…

[altasnob]

That closed in 1949. And it was only rope tows.

The thing preventing ski areas in National Parks today is that parks like Rainier and Oly are almost all wilderness.

[altasnob]

Crystal season pass prices are on their website

https://www.crystalmountainresort.co.../season-passes

[::: :::]

Wow, what a bargain…gonna hop right on that Crystal Premier Pass at only $3,799
$2k for a-lot permit

And it will sell out…

[cstefanic]

Did...did they lower prices? My Legend Pass + Ikon + Renewal discount was $1899 last year. That same thing is $1699 this year.

[eSock]

Ha, we really showed them!