espresso making mags?

[californiagrown]

i would think about it - likely i would just buy a stamp and stamp bags.

the way i could see it working is me finding a coffee i think is interesting, proposing a roast date, and then having people "fill" slots.

i'd likely do one or two coffees at a time, one slightly more expensive (there are a ton of really good coffees in the $10-20/lb green range) and one slightly cheaper (like $6-10/lb)

shipping is usually around $10 for a flat rate legal envelope, which i can fit two roasted bags into (approx 12 oz each). it would make sense to do two bags at a time IMO.

if there's enough interest in this i can put together a poll and start a new thread, let me know

You'd have at least one customer.

[teleee]

You'd have at least one customer.

Make that 2

[aragon]

I learned more in the last page of this thread than I have in 10 years of being a posting member of several coffee forums - very very good stuff, @tgapp!!

I am located in Canuckistan (Calgary, AB), but would be up for this deal if the logistics in anyway work out. They likely don't, but I'd love to try some of your beans (TWSS).

Final question - do your beans work for espresso as well as pourover, drip, etc? I've always wondered on the line between beans for each, as many places say it doesn't matter, and some swear by it... like everything, I assume the truth is somewhere in the middle!

[doebedoe]

Make that 2

Now yall are gonna make me feel bad about recieving free beans from tgapp.

I'd be in for a monthly subscription. I don't really need to tell him my flavor preferences as he already knows I'll drink and enjoy the weirdest shit he can throw at me.

[tgapp]

I learned more in the last page of this thread than I have in 10 years of being a posting member of several coffee forums - very very good stuff, @tgapp!!

I am located in Canuckistan (Calgary, AB), but would be up for this deal if the logistics in anyway work out. They likely don't, but I'd love to try some of your beans (TWSS).

Final question - do your beans work for espresso as well as pourover, drip, etc? I've always wondered on the line between beans for each, as many places say it doesn't matter, and some swear by it... like everything, I assume the truth is somewhere in the middle!

thanks!

yeah so i'm a bag fan of what is called omniroasted coffee - i do it for probably 80% of my coffee - which basically means coffee that serves well for both drip and espresso. i'm not a planner - i just fucking wing shit when i make espresso - sometimes it's single origin, sometimes it's an ad hoc blend, whatever. having a flow profiling machine means that 99% of the time even when i am totally bullshitting, i can pull off something that is at least drinkable and is likely tasty. some of this, some of that - and if it doesn't work, i change the ratios or try a different coffee next time.

the biggest factor that allows for omniroast coffee to work well is development time - the third phase of the roast (how much time do you allow the roast to spend after first crack) determines how sweet the coffee is (caramelization takes place here), but that comes at the expense of some of the more delicate "top notes" (think floral ethiopians, or super zingy, bright kenyans - many of those flavors are top notes). even more detrimental to those delicate flavors is the final roast temp - everything turns to charcoal (or chocolate and sugar, if i'm being generous) at some point, it doesn't matter what florals you start with.

so, to get "in range" for espresso, you need an average DTR (development time ratio, so the % of your overall roast that is spent after 1cs) of around ~20% (again, tastes vary, and DTR is not a perfect measure. if you have, for example, some really slow roasting washed coffee that needs 12 minutes in the drum, 2 minutes of development time is still significant, even if it is less than 20% DTR, technically). any where between 20 and 25% dtr, IMO, is appropriate for espresso. maybe as much as 30%, but that's hard to do, and again, comes at the expense of some unique varietal/origin tasting notes.


so - for me, for my tastes, i generally like sweeter pourovers, and what little i lose in ultra delicate flavors i often make up for in versatility. i also like fairly bright espresso (not sour, that's gross), and my pourovers are probably what most people would consider to be on the light side of medium (i get the bare minimum level of development to create a tasty shot, but i try not to overshoot that mark by too much). there are some coffees that i will do as dedicated pourovers (kenyans, many washed ethiopians, though i will use them as a component in espresso blending, usually around the 10-20% mark), and in that case, i keep my development time to 12 to 18% (avg of around 16% for pourover only coffees, i reckon)

all of this is just personal preference and taste though.

[tgapp]

yeah so the holy grail of excellent coffee (i've said this before in the coffee thread) is well-developed (20-25% DTR), light roasted (city to a scant city +) coffee. that's what i'm after - and it's really, really hard to do well.

jbc out of madison wisconsin is absolutely legendary in this respect. their coffees are so fucking well developed, all while being incredibly complex. i honest to god have no idea how they do it. some sort of black magic fuckery.

[aragon]

I have heard good things about a bunch of Calgary roasters... I don't imagine there stuff would have made it down to most here (ie tgapp in SLC), but anyone have intel on any of these:

-Rosso (Rosso Coffee Roasters)
-Phil & Sebastian (Coffee in Calgary - Phil & Sebastian (philsebastian.com))
-Monogram (Calgary Coffee Delivery – Monogram Coffee)
-Rouge Wave (Rogue Wave Coffee Co | Edmonton Coffee Roaster) Edmonton, but close enough...)
-Analog/Fratello (Analog Coffee)

[tgapp]

I have heard good things about a bunch of Calgary roasters... I don't imagine there stuff would have made it down to most here (ie tgapp in SLC), but anyone have intel on any of these:

-Rosso (Rosso Coffee Roasters)
-Phil & Sebastian (Coffee in Calgary - Phil & Sebastian (philsebastian.com))
-Monogram (Calgary Coffee Delivery – Monogram Coffee)
-Rouge Wave (Rogue Wave Coffee Co | Edmonton Coffee Roaster) Edmonton, but close enough...)
-Analog/Fratello (Analog Coffee)

actually both rouge wave and monogram have excellent reputations, and looking at their sourcing, they're doing some cool shit. the others don't look bad at all, especially phil & sebastian.

there are a lot of coffees i would be very keen on trying in that list. P&S looks to be doing some pretty remarkable sourcing.

[tgapp]

https://www.analogcoffee.ca/collecti...ducts/ethiopia

holy shit buy that coffee

at first i dismissed it because they just advertised it as "ethiopian" but then i clicked on it and saw it was wolichu wachu (exact spellings vary) - that processing station, out of uraga, is phenomenal. that's been my white whale of ethiopian washed coffees - the coffee that got away - and i've been looking for it (in green) ever since

lots of other good picks in the list you sent though, aragon

[aragon]

Thanks!! (and sorry for the thread derail) but now I don't need to look long and hard for good beans to source. I had heard that the local stuff here was pretty highly regarded (and I have enjoyed lots of it), but nice to hear some confirmation - cheers!!

[PowderAlltheTime]

I agree, this is the best coffee discussion on the web right now. So much knowledge shared, with unbiased reviews of equipment, beans and technique.

Roasting kicks my ass. You have to have spidey sense to know what the beans are going to do and then make the change to help them develop to the best flavor profile. That where I fail--I don't have spidey sense. People, like TGAPP make it look easy.

Can I ask a few questions, non-roasting, that have been vexing me lately. Flow control settings for espresso; Can anyone give me a quick tutorial the ;variables of flow control profile? Do you change your flow control settings for different kinds of beans? Do you change for different kinds of roasts? Do you change your grind settings and then change the flow control? Do you even look at extraction time when you flow control?

Extraction ratio. I've been doing a 1:2 extraction lately, but I had a friend give me some St.Frank's Little Brother beans. St. Frank 1:2.2 extraction. What are the pros and cons of doing more than and less than a 1:2 extraction?

[zion zig zag]

Make that 2

Thirded.

[jm2e]

Tgapp, sorry to hear your life’s been turned upside down recently. Hang in there and try to find some way to laugh every day and be true to yourself.


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[tgapp]

I agree, this is the best coffee discussion on the web right now. So much knowledge shared, with unbiased reviews of equipment, beans and technique.

Roasting kicks my ass. You have to have spidey sense to know what the beans are going to do and then make the change to help them develop to the best flavor profile. That where I fail--I don't have spidey sense. People, like TGAPP make it look easy.

Can I ask a few questions, non-roasting, that have been vexing me lately. Flow control settings for espresso; Can anyone give me a quick tutorial the ;variables of flow control profile? Do you change your flow control settings for different kinds of beans? Do you change for different kinds of roasts? Do you change your grind settings and then change the flow control? Do you even look at extraction time when you flow control?

Extraction ratio. I've been doing a 1:2 extraction lately, but I had a friend give me some St.Frank's Little Brother beans. St. Frank 1:2.2 extraction. What are the pros and cons of doing more than and less than a 1:2 extraction?

yep sure i can help here, but there's no spidey sense. seriously. just data-driven decision making. what makes roasting cool is you can do it endlessly and still have room for improvement.

flow control >> lots of ideas around this so all i can offer is my own. plenty of ways of approaching this question though, so don't take this as dogma or gospel.

i like to do a very slow pre-infusion at less than 1 bar (max 2) of pressure for around 25 seconds, then i gradually build pressure to 9-10 bars over around 5 seconds, after which i leave it there for another 20-25 seconds (50-55 seconds right now for those keeping track at home). then, i taper the shot off for another 20 seconds, gradually closing the valve until my pressure bottoms out again. if the shot blonds early, i kill the pump. generally my shots run in the 70-90 second range, with the most important things here being the very slow pre-infusion and then the gradual taper at the tail end of the shot. the pre-infusion makes sure that the entire puck is ready to be extracted (even and consistent water, etc), while the taper allows for solubles that are still present to flow out of the puck without over-extracting (what would happen if you just left it at 9-10 bars for the entire shot). this behavior also mimics how levers operate, which for many espresso enthusiasts, represent the gold standard of shot quality. the natural taper of a lever's profile allows for a more thorough extraction without getting into those bitter/acrid compounds that are found when a coffee is over-extracted.

lighter roasted coffees generally take longer blooms with slower ramps. this is because of the lack of fines in the puck. lighter coffees also require a finer grind, for the same reason.

extraction ratio is personal preference, IMO, but there's nothing wrong with 1:2. it's the standard for a reason. lately i drink a lot of 2.5-1 or even 3:1 shots. i've gone so far as to do 4:1, too. smaller ratios = denser shots, more body, less "space" between flavors. bigger ratios = more watery, less body, but also more space for flavors to come out



this shot was an excellent panamanian ASD natural catuai from elida estate. ended up being 18.5g in, 44g out, 204 degrees f, 72 second run time. you can see the flow entry point (right where the light reflects off the crema) - i probably could have let this shot run another 5-8 seconds since it actually never blonded. oh well.

in the cup it was strawberry reduction, lilac (or some other floral, idk), and chocolate.

[jm2e]

I think if you start formalizing the FKNA coffee train, you should do like you said and keep it 100% on your terms.
Couple/few times a year or however often you feel like planning a big batch. Money up front. We “contribute” to overhead; beans, utilities, wear & tear, S&H, gas, hookers, blow, etc. Send it out in your own sweet time. People don’t like the wait, the cost, the flavor, they quietly bow out of the next round.


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[Doremite]

I am down for a seat in the bean bus. I have been trying to convince myself I don’t need flow control and tgapps latest post isn’t helping.

I assume if you overly saturate the puck at pre-infusion it will great effect your flow rate and extraction time. I also assume the right level of pre-infusion based on one’s machines ability to execute and driver competence develops through trial and error. Lightly damp not swampy?

[jackattack]

if there's enough interest in this i can put together a poll and start a new thread, let me know

I'm in!

[jono]

I'm in!

+ another

[Boissal]

I'll drink that coffee.

[Norseman]

Yup

[tgapp]

I am down for a seat in the bean bus. I have been trying to convince myself I don’t need flow control and tgapps latest post isn’t helping.

I assume if you overly saturate the puck at pre-infusion it will great effect your flow rate and extraction time. I also assume the right level of pre-infusion based on one’s machines ability to execute and driver competence develops through trial and error. Lightly damp not swampy?

Nahh you can't really fuck up pre infusion. Sometimes I turn on the pump, have the flow control valve at a very low setting, realize I need to go pee or do something, and come back like 40 seconds later or whatever, then I ramp up and finish the shot. It's not an exact science. Maybe it is for the coffee bros it is but not for me.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[Doremite]

Nahh you can't really fuck up pre infusion. Sometimes I turn on the pump, have the flow control valve at a very low setting, realize I need to go pee or do something, and come back like 40 seconds later or whatever, then I ramp up and finish the shot. It's not an exact science. Maybe it is for the coffee bros it is but not for me.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

Sorry I was talking more about trying to introduce pre-infusion absent flow control. I can slightly engage the lever or my Expobar for a light shower but the flow level would flood the puck at 10+ seconds. Thinking of going w/ a few second light sprinkle as a pre-infusion before fully engaging the lever and building pressure. I have never bothered w pre-infusion previously but you have me curious.

After reading a bit I guess this is pre-wetting. Of course the internet can’t agree on whether it adds value.

[californiagrown]

Ya know what pisses me off? I make great pour over. It's flavorful, smooth and just a delight. As long as I drink it from a normal ceramic mug. As soon as it goes into a stainless travel mug, it becomes watery brown shitty water.

[tgapp]

Sorry I was talking more about trying to introduce pre-infusion absent flow control. I can slightly engage the lever or my Expobar for a light shower but the flow level would flood the puck at 10+ seconds. Thinking of going w/ a few second light sprinkle as a pre-infusion before fully engaging the lever and building pressure. I have never bothered w pre-infusion previously but you have me curious.

After reading a bit I guess this is pre-wetting. Of course the internet can’t agree on whether it adds value.

yeah i don't know if it does or not. if you're curious about pre-infusion, find out if the top of your e61 group head can take one of the aftermarket valves (it very likely can) and then buy one and throw it on there. the bonus to coffee gear is that it holds it's value stupid well, so worst case, you'll be out like $20-30 for the experiment even if you don't like it. lots of e61 flow control kits - i might take a picture of your grouphead just to confirm compatibility.

here is an expobar brewtus with flow control:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0IMXRgC1rs

this seems to be a decent deal with good reviews:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/7517613...YaAkhCEALw_wcB

Ya know what pisses me off? I make great pour over. It's flavorful, smooth and just a delight. As long as I drink it from a normal ceramic mug. As soon as it goes into a stainless travel mug, it becomes watery brown shitty water.

yep, coffee + stainless are no good. stainless holds flavors, it'll always make your coffee taste like shit.

the *best* solution in this space right now is a ceramic-coated mug. it's not perfect - the plastic/rubber gaskets still have some flavor retention - but it is an appreciable improvement over stainless (that might be a bit of an understatement - it's waaaay better than stainless mugs/thermoses, i'll never go back)...it's just not perfect when compared to a ceramic mug.

i like the ones made by fellow - there are three different designs depending on your use case. this one, in the 16 oz size, is my jam:

https://fellowproducts.com/products/carter-move-mug

[zion zig zag]

^^^Curious how durable those Fellows mugs are? I don't expect to survive a 6 foot drop to concrete, but my wife isn't gentle on things. And I hate the stainless taste.