K2 Mindbender Skis

[Garfield3d]

Anybody ski the mindbender 99ti and can compare it to skis like the Mantra, Bonafide, or Enforcer?
Blister talks about the 99ti like it's actually more powerful than the mantra and enforcer, better edge hold than the bonafide, yet easier to break free. Kinda magic sounding ski if true. Would love to verify that with other people who've skied it.

The Mindbender 99Ti in 170 is my main ski, and I've spent a few days on the Bonafide in 173, Mantra M5 in 170, and the Enforcer in 169. With that said... I sort of agree that the Mindbender might be more powerful than the Bonafide and Mantra, It definitely has more edge hold, and I'd rank the edge hold as Mindbender > Bonafide > Mantra. That being said, I feel like all three of those skis fit the same category with the idea of a heavier charger type of ski that can break into a slide with minor effort.

I've had no personal experience with the Mantra M102, so I'm afraid I can't provide a data point there for you.

With the Enforcer, I'm afraid I can't provide a very objective comparison for you. I personally hate the Enforcer. Honestly, I have honestly never figured out why I hate the Enforcer so much since it seems to fit into the same category as the Mindbender. My knee-jerk thoughts are that the Enforcer feels too heavy and sluggish at changing directions for me. Maybe someone more objective than me can provide a fair comparison with the Enforcer vs Mindbender.

Whenever I'm renting skis, I usually slot the Mindbender, Bonafide, and Mantra as pretty close with a personal bias for the Mindbender followed by the Mantra as my go-to skis for front-side carving-type of skiing. I've taken them on maybe 2-4 inches of snow and they don't do badly in that environment either, but I've never been on anything deeper than that so I can't comment too much on their all-mountain diversity.

Lastly, I should probably put a disclaimer that I'm a pretty intermediate skier, so you should probably take my words with a grain of salt.

[alude]

Anybody ski the mindbender 99ti and can compare it to skis like the Mantra, Bonafide, or Enforcer?
Blister talks about the 99ti like it's actually more powerful than the mantra and enforcer, better edge hold than the bonafide, yet easier to break free. Kinda magic sounding ski if true. Would love to verify that with other people who've skied it.

I looked into our online database/comparator (https://soothski.com/). One thing that I noticed is that you should be careful when comparing the different length due to the stiffness scaling of these skis. Often, the scaling of the longer/longest lengths is kind of all over the place. I feel that the longest length is often used by manufacturers like wildcard to please the strongest skiers.

185ish cm lengths:
You can look at a detailed comparison of these skis here (I used the most recent years we have in the database):
https://compareskis.shinyapps.io/com...=%22Compare%22

The width shape is pretty similar between all of these skis. The Enforcer has more surface further away in the tail, but this part of the ski is up in the air. The main differences are in the tip/tail rocker shapes. See below (please disregard a small display bug in the topview of the enforcer tip):




The Enforcer has the tip/tail rocker that is the longest. The MB has a long "early rise" in the tip that starts in the same area as the Enforcer. However, the tip rise is very shallow, so if you ski in soft snow (or at high edge angle) it should feel close to a Bonafide but will feel easier to pivot when kept flat on hard snow. The Mantra M5 tip rocker starts the furthest away from the center of the ski and rises very slowly. The Bonafide has 5-10 cm more tail contact.

Stiffness-wise, we typically look at both bending stiffness and torsional stiffness. It is easier to compare skis with very similar geometries (e.g., even a super stiff reverse camber ski will be playful). With camber, a higher bending stiffness will pressure more the tip/tail of the ski onto the snow, preventing them to flap at high speed (i.e., higher speed limit) and will fell harder to pivot (directional stability). It will also push you out of mogul more. Higher torsional stiffness will make the ski tip twist less, giving you better edge grip, better tracking and less playfulness (in the sense that the tip/tail can let go of their grip even when the ski is still on edge). Too much will make the ski feel overly tuned and catchy.

You can look at the graph below. I think it matches your description of Blister's review if you associate power with bending stiffness, and edge hold with torsional stiffness and tip shape. Note that the stiffness differences are on the order of 15-25%. We think that very sensitive skiers will feel 10-20% differences, while most dedicated skiers will start feeling differences around 20%.



The surface-to-mass ratio is also interesting to look at to give you a sense of its construction (it is more telling than the weight when the surface is not exactly the same). You can see that the Bonafide has the heaviest construction (i.e., using denser material like wood, plastic/rubber, titanal). Weight is often associated with skis that can charge and a damped ride (although it is not damping per se). The Mantra and MB slightly have lighter constructions.



177ish cm lengths:
If you look at a shorter length of these skis, you get a somewhat different result. You can see the full data here:
https://compareskis.shinyapps.io/com...=%22Compare%22

The geometry take aways are quite similar than for what we seen in the longer length. The main difference is that the Mantra is now having a bit more of its tail in contact with the snow, i.e., it is now closer to the bonafide.

The stiffnesses conclusions are however not the same anymore. The Mantra, Bonafide and MB all have basically the same bending and torsional stiffnesses. Thus, the main difference that you will feel between these lengths will be related to the geometry (or maybe stiffness distributions that is not available in the comparator yet). The Enforcer is 8% stiffer in bending and 18% stiffer in torsion.




It is also useful to look at how these skis compare with respect to "similar skis" (currently defined very simply as skis that are +-5mm wide and +-5 cm long). I won't paste the graphs here, but all of these skis are around the 50 percentile of bending stiffness and above the 75 percentile of torsional stiffness. It gives you an idea of how much stiffness you like relative to the overall offering, or how much more/less you could get in a different model.

You can use the comparator to compare other models and lengths. We wrote a short tutorial (https://soothski.com/compare-skis-wi...ication-guide/) but are still working on better explanations of all of this stuff. Comments are welcome.

We added 300 skis from 2021-22 last week and should be adding a few hundreds more in the next few weeks. We are measuring everything that we can find right now! :-)

I hope it helps!

[SnakeMagnet]

^ I figured i'd give my hypothesis a test regarding the M102 and MB99 comparison for skis in the lengths that I use. ("Maybe bit more damp, and looser in the tail.") Disregarding the enforcers to clean up the graphs, as they are just completely different shape and profile and notably longer; it's not a good comparison to begin with. Unfortunately you're lacking data points on the M102 to complete the check (they are within 100g of each other though), and TBH I think the data for the M102 might be off a touch. Anyways..

The only thing i'll note that doesn't need a graph would be the M102's camber difference: 4mm vs 7mm. The Mindbender would theoretically have more energy to pop out of a deep carve.



Nearly identical Tips, slight more early rise for the MB. Tails have similar rocker length but the M102 is much more shallow. The latter I can confirm.



A bit more stout, and overall the stiffest flex of the bunch is the M102. I'll note however that the E100 by the data has comparable flex and significantly more torsional rigidity than all of them, which I find unusual from my experience with them. Though they supposedly beefed up last year. Though it's with a big grain of salt as skis do not hold the same stiffness througout, or even a consistent flex pattern. For example, while the M102 and Mindbender likely have similar rigidity up front with their partial laminate edging, I guarantee that the lack of metal on the edge of the MB tails make it easier to twist than the Mantra and it's full-length frame.

The other point of comparison I found interesting:



There's more ski making effective edge contact on the M102 especially in the back, which lends to having an overall firmer grip on the snow, and therefore being more dialed in and harder to break loose. This would be counteracted by the lower camber to an extent, however.

Overall this looks like it provides strong support to the notion of a looser MB tail, and that the two skis are the most comparable of the bunch.

[CHAIR_97]

How stable are the Reckoner 112?

Although you can't tell from a hand flex they are extremely stable.

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[kc_7777]

Although you can't tell from a hand flex they are extremely stable.

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Makes me happy.

I’m thinking of mounting my Reckoner 112s shortly with either STH or CAST.

Will complement my Rustler 11s, for days after a storm that I want a more playful ski. Though Rustlers are playful too.

But am glad to hear the Recks are not noodles.

[Fofo]

This is why I really like this place! The depth and breadth of knowledge is impressive. Thank you. Great data and analysis, @alude, @SnakeMagnet and all of you who share their minds here.

[alude]

^ I figured i'd give my hypothesis a test regarding the M102 and MB99 comparison for skis in the lengths that I use. ("Maybe bit more damp, and looser in the tail.")

Love this!

Unfortunately you're lacking data points on the M102 to complete the check (they are within 100g of each other though), and TBH I think the data for the M102 might be off a touch. Anyways..

We should be able to measure the M102 this year. What do you think is off in our measurements?

A bit more stout, and overall the stiffest flex of the bunch is the M102. I'll note however that the E100 by the data has comparable flex and significantly more torsional rigidity than all of them, which I find unusual from my experience with them.

I think the fact that the widest points of the E100 are way up in the air might be part of what is causing this to be a "lazy ski". On soft groomer, having a certain sidecut radius is not all you need. You also need a certain sidecut depth to turn. Edge hold of the E100 could also be lower because less edge is touching the snow, thus having your weight being distributed on less snow. The snow can only old so much before letting go... We need a better way to compare skis with different geometries!

Though it's with a big grain of salt as skis do not hold the same stiffness througout, or even a consistent flex pattern. For example, while the M102 and Mindbender likely have similar rigidity up front with their partial laminate edging, I guarantee that the lack of metal on the edge of the MB tails make it easier to twist than the Mantra and it's full-length frame.

I will try to get you the stiffness distribution so that you can have the full picture.

There's more ski making effective edge contact on the M102 especially in the back, which lends to having an overall firmer grip on the snow, and therefore being more dialed in and harder to break loose. This would be counteracted by the lower camber to an extent, however.

Only caveat I would add here is that the taper is related to the position of the largest width of the tip/tail. Sometime that point is way up in the air and might never touch the snow even at high edge angle. It is not obvious to figure that out from the specs. We need to add a way to calculate the deformed shape at a given edge angle!! :-)

[SnakeMagnet]

We should be able to measure the M102 this year. What do you think is off in our measurements?

The m5 tipped me off, and it's almost all in the tail. The skis are near clones just at differing widths and yet their profiles are less similar than a MB. Blister measured the M102's tails (and I did too just to confirm), and the splay was definitely more than 10mm, and the stick was absolutely not ~5cm shorter in true length than a MB. In review there's a much more similar tail profile on the MB than I had initially judged, thus bringing their assumed comparison even closer.

I think the fact that the widest points of the E100 are way up in the air might be part of what is causing this to be a "lazy ski". On soft groomer, having a certain sidecut radius is not all you need. You also need a certain sidecut depth to turn. Edge hold of the E100 could also be lower because less edge is touching the snow, thus having your weight being distributed on less snow. The snow can only old so much before letting go... We need a better way to compare skis with different geometries!

In broad terms that might be doable. To be specific and pinpoint would require a means of accurately translating what amounts to touchy feely crap created by all the construction/shape factors into a numerical data point. I.e. an equation that combines all relevant parts of the ski to= a "float" or" Grip" or "damp" number. An assumed number at that, as it inevitably becomes subjective in reality. I don't have a math PhD lying around so i'm not much help.

I will try to get you the stiffness distribution so that you can have the full picture.

A 3-split on shovel-boot-rear/'handle' flex would be the minimum necessary for the macro picture. As the tips and tails typically don't even touch snow with force in normal skiing, their influence is typically subtle, but can still be important..

Only caveat I would add here is that the taper is related to the position of the largest width of the tip/tail. Sometime that point is way up in the air and might never touch the snow even at high edge angle. It is not obvious to figure that out from the specs. We need to add a way to calculate the deformed shape at a given edge angle!! :-)

It is relevant in effect to the ski's absolute maximum effective edge. I have to disagree with the idea of a taper point being unreachable in a carve (reflect-tech lives off the premise that it always can). Until some numpty makes an actual bow-ski shitpost, a taper point splayed so high up that not even the FIS DH's could engage it is unnecessary weight and protruding material begging to hook on soft snow (and for the sake of covering my ass, true R/R's are entirely taper; and the 2nd and 4th points of a 5-pointer are considered the taper points, as they demarcate the actual effective edge). IME it's a guarantee that any ski that exists past that point is a non-factor on hardpack grip. But then there's also a need to consider whether or not the length and angle of the sidecut 'transition' at the point influences grip too..

I recommend finding someone willing to sponsor a university for a study on that last bit, because I don't have the advil to stop the impending headache of factoring all the variables.

[CHAIR_97]

I tried to read that but I fell asleep

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[Bandit Man]

I tried to read that but I fell asleep

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No doubt. Seems like this is lining up to be the winter of data scientists analyzing what makes the perfect ski. As much as I like reading reviews and various skier perspectives, nothing beats first hand, on the snow experience.

[SnakeMagnet]

Pretty much what I attempted to imply with the migrane comments.

I live for the nerd shit, and this information is what decided my purchases and is why I haven't been bamboozled yet. But come snow I don't have time for it. All I want to fucking do is ski.

[waxoff]

IME it's a guarantee that any ski that exists past that point is a non-factor on hardpack grip.

Well, it could be argued that since the tapered portions contribute to the skis inertia, they can have an effect on hardpack grip (usually for the worse). They are also a source for generating vibrations feeding into the main body of the ski, which will also affect grip. Hair splitting maybe. But real world examples are out there. For instance, tapered sections are kept short, or even non existing, on race skis and frontside carvers. For good reasons one can assume...

Edited to add (the obvious): The tapered sections play a vital role in soft snow. Their benefits in soft snow conditions are greater than their drawbacks on hardpack, hence they exist.

[SnakeMagnet]

Thought about that as I typed it up and you are correct, but I tried to keep the response within the scope: Related to effective edge and the notion a ski would have a taper point that would never see the surface of a groomer at any achievable edge angle or flex. Goes back to the opinion that i'd much rather be using skis than nitpicking them. Only about a month's wait left..

[waxoff]

Same here regarding use vs nitpicking!

However, if you had two skis with identical mid sections, taper point to taper point (with regards to dimensions, flex, rocker, etc..), but one of them had twice as long tapered sections outside of said identical midbody, I'm pretty sure you'd sense a difference in real world skiing them on hardpack. Even though theoretical data point studies would have deemed them equal. I'll just leave it at that, carry on!

Edit; sorry for messing up the K2 MB thread, my bad!

[gaijin]

Deleted.

[Sandbox]

I'm all in! this thread really does bend the mind to wanting.... Anyone seeing any deals on the 108 as of late? Doesn't seem like Corbetts has any.

[alude]

Point taken, I will keep the side discussions out of this thread.

The m5 tipped me off, and it's almost all in the tail. The skis are near clones just at differing widths and yet their profiles are less similar than a MB. Blister measured the M102's tails (and I did too just to confirm), and the splay was definitely more than 10mm, and the stick was absolutely not ~5cm shorter in true length than a MB. In review there's a much more similar tail profile on the MB than I had initially judged, thus bringing their assumed comparison even closer.

Just so that I am not miss-leading people who look at the data from this thread, I will just quickly mention that we were not measuring the full length of the skis before 2020-21. We were within a few cm, but the start/stop point would be variable depending on the operator. This means that values like taper or tail length would be off by a bit, as well as any value measured from the tip/tail end points. Don't look at these numbers for skis before 2020-21 and keep that in mind when looking at the geometry graphs. I will add a disclaimer.

From 2020-21 onward, it is all good. We should have updated values for 2021-22 in the next few weeks.

[CHAIR_97]

Real world testing.

Mindbender 99TI rips



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[gaijin]

You say Real world testing but actually say NOTHING.

Why do you like this ski, Homie? I mean— those aren’t your tracks.

Everything rips in 2021.


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[babybear]

You say Real world testing but actually say NOTHING.

Why do you like this ski, Homie? I mean— those aren’t your tracks.

Everything rips in 2021.


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who pissed in your wheaties today?

[CHAIR_97]

You say Real world testing but actually say NOTHING.

Why do you like this ski, Homie? I mean— those aren’t your tracks.

Everything rips in 2021.


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My buddy and I skied the 99s 4 days in a row at Jackson hole. Most of the skiing we did was backcountry or ripping back to the lifts to make another ob lap. 2 ft of untracked ? 99 all day . South facing hoback crust skiing 99 all day. 65 mph groomers on Sublette and Thunder? 99 all day. Those are my tracks so stfu. How do you know I didn't put every track in that picture in? You don't so keep your bullshit to yourself. I was simply trying to get this thread back on track after the invasion by Jong and Jong. Have a nice day sayonara

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[VON]

Nice! That pic gets me stoked for winter.

I'd love to hear your description of how the 99's performed on that run, and especially curious if you could compare their performance in those kinds of conditions to other skis you've been on - especially skis in the 105ish wide category.

[gaijin]

SVS— I apologize for the drunk posting.

It was funny when I typed it.


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[L8APX]

[JaytaeMoney]

Didn't think I would ever buy another K2 ski but I've got a pair of MB108ti being delivered tomorrow. On paper it checks all of the boxes and I got a pretty solid deal on last year's topsheet so pretty low risk/high reward situation.