To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[altasnob]

Why can't we just get genetically screened so our mRNA vaccine is custom tailored for our own genetic code?

I say this jokingly but the idea of custom tailoring vaccines for the specific person seems like the direction we are heading in the future (custom for genetics, presence of antibodies, ect). I thought it was generally accepted that you don't want more of any vaccine than is necessary to obtain the desired result? Not just the side effects (although rare) that have been discussed, but also exhausting your immune system leaving you vulnerable to other pathogens.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

hey bud, I don’t know if you’ve actually went back and read through those last 3 or 4 pages but nowhere in any of that did anyone explain how you can get a vaccine and have 0 antibodies after getting it.

stop lying dude. You’re the one being dishonest now. I’ll own up with you because you seem to be even keeled somewhat. But just because someone has a differing opinion with alternate facts doesn’t make them a liar buddy.

There is no such thing as alternate facts. It’s either a fact or it’s not.


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[stuckathuntermtn]

I'm waiting for something like that for biologicals. Either protein (more likely) or DNA.
Probably just wind up staying on Enbrel though. Humera did NOT work for me. Just shooting in the dark to find a drug that works can be a fucking disaster.

[MultiVerse]

Why can't we just get genetically screened so our mRNA vaccine is custom tailored for our own genetic code?

I say this jokingly but the idea of custom tailoring vaccines for the specific person seems like the direction we are heading in the future (custom for genetics, presence of antibodies, ect). I thought it was generally accepted that you don't want more of any vaccine than is necessary to obtain the desired result? Not just the side effects (although rare) that have been discussed, but also exhausting your immune system leaving you vulnerable to other pathogens.

You don't need a custom vaccine. Your immune system doesn't get exhausted. Healthy people younger than probably 65 don't need a booster, although there is a documented benefit for people 50+. Regardless, a booster is like another cellular training session for your immune system resulting in a stronger memory immune response and also generates a fresh set of antibodies.

But other than people who are older or immunocompromised, once fully trained long lasting memory B cells and T cells offer more than enough long lasting protection because the virus will be rarely confronted in a vaccinated population.

[Self Jupiter]

There is no such thing as alternate facts. It’s either a fact or it’s not.


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(Sorry /poliass)

[Kevo]

Has anyone posted this Carl Sagan quote yet?

"I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...

The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance."

Written in 1995...

[ticketchecker]

Vaccines wane for very appropriate reasons. That and more covered in this Andy Slavitt thread.

https://twitter.com/aslavitt/status/...217968650?s=21







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[Conundrum]

N of 1. My cousin is 32 and had C19 back in the spring. Sniffle and a headache for a couple days. Got it a second time two weeks ago and is laid up hard. No underlying health issues. He works for my grandpa who told him enough of the bullshit, you're going home until you can show me two negatives and I'm not paying you until you're back at work. Also not paying you until you show me a vax card. My cousin is the type of person who probably won't find anything else gainful unless he works for family. He's also a Trumper.

[MontuckyFried]

And MTU, actually yes, there is hope of moving on from this pandemic IF we get enough people vaccinated. That's sort of the whole point.

Not according to some health officials in some places. See: Recent Presser in NSW, Aus - "Things will not ever go back to normal." Yup. Just like all the security theatre TSA still loves so much at the airports, even if we were to achieve 100% vaccination, Covid theater will also always be a thing from now on.

[skaredshtles]

https://www.callingbullshit.org/syllabus.html

This should be a required *high school* course.

[altasnob]

Your immune system doesn't get exhausted.

I used the word "exhaust" because I saw it recently in an Atlantic article:

and some are wary of the potential for overboosting, which can exhaust immune cells or stir up side effects

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...ccines/620099/

Vaccinating too often is also possible: At a certain point, cells will stop learning efficiently from the material vaccines provide, and essentially “burn out” from information overload

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...itable/619272/

[riser4]

I'm not a telepath. They don't teach that in college.

[MultiVerse]

I used the word "exhaust" because I saw it recently in an Atlantic article:
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...ccines/620099/

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...itable/619272/

Think about it this way:

• Vaccines train the immune system to fight a pathogen. Our immune system, not the vaccine, fights the virus.
• Antibodies peak after an infection and then slowly decay.
• After infection or vaccination memory B cells increase over at least six months, improve functionally, and provide cross-variant protection.
• There does however appear to be an upper limit on the immune response. We know prior + 1 dose is better but beyond that more is not necessarily better.
• So even though boosters increase plasma antibody levels and temporarily extend antibody protection, they have not been shown to augment the memory B and T cell responses.

The first vaccine dose, the prime dose, activates naive T cells as well as B cells. The properties of those critical T cells change over time after priming. The boost is then meant to stimulate or train the primary memory B and T cells creating a more potent immune response. If the first vaccine injections are too close in time to each other then the second dose acts as if it's another primary dose rather than a boost.

The main thing is there's a lot more to it than antibody levels and viral loads. Studies show the time between doses makes a big difference. So instead of worrying repetitive boosters or thinking about boosters like flu shots, think about time between doses. A booster can be though of as a training the mature immune system to induce a robust long lasting memory B & T cell secondary response.



FWIW, this is what the latest research says offers the strongest immune response:

• 1a. 1 dose + prior COVID provides the most robust immunity
• 1b. Naive 2 doses with a long 16 week interval between is almost as good

• 2a. Prior Severe Covid
• 2b. Naive 2 doses given over a short interval ← could be an argument for +1 boost

• c. Prior Mild Covid

There isn't a lot of evidence yet because boosters are so new, but an additional dose could move people up into the 1a & 1b category.

[Buster Highmen]

There is no such thing as alternate facts. It’s either a fact or it’s not.

Is light a particle or a wave?

Point being that I think science has paradigms that are derived from studies of data, but both the studies and data may have error terms, intentional or not.
Paradigms change.

mtu doesn't really understand the distinction and abuses the terms "facts" in this context.

[AK47bp]

There is no such thing as alternate facts. It’s either a fact or it’s not.


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Wow. He did use the term “alternative facts”. Amazing.

So we all now what you guys are working with here.

Again, why does this guy deserve explanations?

He probably thinks the earth Is flat like the rest of them.


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[MultiVerse]

Not according to some health officials in some places. See: Recent Presser in NSW, Aus - "Things will not ever go back to normal." Yup. Just like all the security theatre TSA still loves so much at the airports, even if we were to achieve 100% vaccination, Covid theater will also always be a thing from now on.

I don't think so. While the virus will be endemic, the pandemic will end. It has already happened in countries like Denmark, Ireland, Chile, and Norway.

That doesn't mean cases won't spike, especially in unvaccinated populations, but when we reach a high enough level of population immunity Covid hospitalizations and deaths will fall to the levels of other respiratory diseases. When that happens life will return to normal with few restrictions.

[ill-advised strategy]

Has anyone posted this Carl Sagan quote yet?

"I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...

The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance."

Written in 1995...

Click on Carl’s name in my sig!

River of deceit:


A song about addiction.
I think our national and global relationship to the smart phone and gaming and social media has manifested as a general mass addiction, with the typical addict’s inherent tendencies toward self delusion and self destruction coalescing into scattered humanitarian crises fueled by a constellation of narcissism-misinformation loops contained in self-contained, self-fulfilling insular culture-bubbles that appear like death cults in the context of their results: mass shootings, opiate crises, full ICUs. The river of deceit flows down, the only direction we go is down. Down, on down. Down, on down.

[old_newguy]

I don't think so. While the virus will be endemic, the pandemic will end. It has already happened in countries like Denmark, Ireland, Chile, and Norway.

That doesn't mean cases won't spike, especially in unvaccinated populations, but when we reach a high enough level of population immunity Covid hospitalizations and deaths will fall to the levels of other respiratory diseases. When that happens life will return to normal with few restrictions.

Which is basically what the lady from NSW said.

Which for me at least would be basically normal.

[Mazderati]

[MultiVerse]

Which is basically what the lady from NSW said.

Which for me at least would be basically normal.

We are already seeing it in this country. A new study COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Infections in the Veterans Health Administration looking at 3 million fully vaccinated people (median age 70) through the end of August shows low rates of breakthrough infection and hospitalization, especially based on regional vax rates:

“Strong associations between vaccine breakthrough events and regional COVID-19 incidence, proportion of delta variant, and vaccine coverage…”

"Vaccine coverage was inversely associated with documented SARS-CoV-2 infection ... A significant interaction between vaccine coverage and COVID-19 incidence was identified across outcomes."

“The low overall occurrence of vaccine breakthrough infections in our study suggests that boosting COVID-19 immune responses via an additional vaccine dose might not have substantial benefit in the general population.”

“…We observed low overall occurrence of vaccine breakthrough events more than 200 days after vaccination, suggesting a substantial protective effect against COVID-19 in persons who are fully vaccinated.”

"Vaccine breakthrough was rare among fully vaccinated persons ... Efforts to limit COVID-19 transmission and bolster vaccine coverage would also curtail vaccine breakthrough."


To see such impressive results in an older high risk population bodes well for our future.

[mcski]

Around here insurers advertise Medicare Advantage plans for free, with extras like gym memberships thrown in. Medicare pays the insurers enough to provide all care that they make a profit without the patient paying a dime for basically 100% coverage. What's the catch? They do their best to see that you don't get any expensive care.

Ya, I’ve always been wary of the advantage plans. I was referring to the standard supplements that cover the gap on A&B

Never had any issue w care coverage w dealing w my dad’s issues and he racked up well over $1M dollars in hospital bills

[jono]

Wow. He did use the term “alternative facts”. Amazing.

So we all now what you guys are working with here.

Again, why does this guy deserve explanations?

He probably thinks the earth Is flat like the rest of them.


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I'm still waiting for a pic of test results. Like Adolf, I've asked very nicely and pointed out why a like-minded, unlike-minded or even like-unminded maggot might want to know more about this. But so far nothing. I'm beginning to think he might not be entirely truthful.

[jono]

I used the word "exhaust" because I saw it recently in an Atlantic article:

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...ccines/620099/



https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...itable/619272/

It seems like quoting the Atlantic instead of checking primary sources (they gave links, I assume?) warrants another mention of https://www.callingbullshit.org/syllabus.html

But thinking about this logically, let's assume it's possible (at some extreme) to exhaust your body's immune resources. Would that be more likely to happen if a) you give it one more exposure to a narrowly-defined and totally unchanged pathogen (say, a single spike protein) that it's already seen, or b) you let immunity against that one pathogen wane and later experience a big exposure to a whole virus with, say, a couple dozen different targets for your immune system to worry about? (Leaving off the idea that some of those other targets might just be red herrings or subject to more rapid change than the original target and either more or less useful, as well as the idea that maybe even "waned" immunity would be fine most of the time--given the initial assumption, we're talking extremes.)

Wouldn't you think generating B-cells against all those other targets would tend to "exhaust" your immune system faster than generating a few more of a type you already have? I would think so. But IANAE.

And obviously this says nothing about later immunity, because if "exhaustion" is the concern that's just not the topic anyway.

[Adolf Allerbush]

I'm still waiting for a pic of test results. Like Adolf, I've asked very nicely and pointed out why a like-minded, unlike-minded or even like-unminded maggot might want to know more about this. But so far nothing. I'm beginning to think he might not be entirely truthful.

I share your view about his truthfulness, unfortunately. I highly doubt he's had an antibodies test and I also doubt that he's actually had a confirmed case of COVID-19. My bet is he got a head cold last year, claims it was COVID-19, uses that for his justification for not getting vaccinated, and to make the claim that he's bulletproof. He ignores any information that shows his views to be misguided and refuses to get vaccinated because of some unknown reason that he can't describe.

[CarlMega]

Wow. He did use the term “alternative facts”. Amazing.

You give too much credit, he F'd it up: "alternate" facts. He even gets his misinformation wrong.