To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[Game Over]

My wife told me she read that ivermectin can make women infertile. I found that pleasantly ironic.

Shit that means the UN is committing genocide in Africa.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I dont doubt the effectiveness of vaccinations. I was wondering more about the mutations that might or might not occur. If you think we know that answer, I think thats incorrect. I still think there is a lot we dont know about this particular virus, and it will take time. I've protected myself and my family the best I can and will continue to do so.

Didnt it take about 5 years to get a good working polio vax? And as to the "gist" of the articles? What fucking GIST? there are key words you simply ignore. The "science" isnt set on any stone. Least I get that part.

The summary of the CDC article, that you seem to be clutching so tightly, said that getting vaccinated is in your best interest because it keeps you from getting sick, dying AND spreading the virus. That’s the gist of the article in spite of the use of words like likely, possibly, probably, maybe, may etc.

I think that virologists do know that the vaccines keep the virus from being able to replicate unchecked in a host and mutate, with the exception of a vanishingly small percentage of breakthrough cases. That’s why the message is get vaccinated to stop the spread.

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[Deebased]

That’s your point but multiverse has explained why that’s wrong and so have others. You might have a brief period with the same viral load but less of that is viable in vaccinated people and then the viral infection doesn’t get a foothold and it dies. You don’t get sick, you don’t spread the virus and it won’t mutate because your body fights it off and it doesn’t have time to replicate or mutate.


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Anytime the virus is infecting a new cell its replicating. Anytime replication happens the opportunity for RNA mutation occurs. If you have cells getting infected AND replicating you are a vector for transmission and mutation.

We can argue about the number of replications for vaxed vs unvaxed being an order of magnitude (or more) smaller due to viral load/infection longevity/etc so the likelihood for mutation diminishes exponentially.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Anytime the virus is infecting a new cell its replicating. Anytime replication happens the opportunity for RNA mutation occurs. If you have cells getting infected AND replicating you are a vector for transmission and mutation.

We can argue about the number of replications for vaxed vs unvaxed being an order of magnitude (or more) smaller due to viral load/infection longevity/etc so the likelihood for mutation diminishes exponentially.

Thanks for reaffirming my post.


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[Deebased]

Thanks for reaffirming my post.


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Thanks for confirming that the vaxed ARE a vector for mutation.

[Adolf Allerbush]

Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be any truth to it.

[MultiVerse]

Something to consider when comparing Covid with the flu: the flu has a massive animal reservoir — including swine, pigs, duck, birds, waterfowl — where mutations are constantly happening in close contact with humans. In contrast, if Covid is brought under control in humans thanks to vaccination it will become rare like polio and other vaccine controllable diseases.

It will be controllable because T cells, even after antibodies wane, protect against the spike protein and receptor binding domain of the virus. This study, for example, shows convalescent Covid survivors and mRNA vaccinees are not substantially affected by mutations found in the SARS-CoV-2 variants:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...180v1.full.pdf

[Deebased]

Something to consider when comparing Covid with the flu: the flu has a massive animal reservoir — including swine, pigs, duck, birds, waterfowl — where mutations constantly happeningl in close contact with humans. In contrast, if Covid is brought under control in humans thanks to vaccination, it will become rare like polio and other vaccine controllable diseases.

What am I missing?

C19 has jumped to at least 6 other species and there have been documented cases of it spreading in the wild. Not to mention as viruses go, the variants are pretty immature.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00531-z

[skaredshtles]

Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be any truth to it.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Thanks for confirming that the vaxed ARE a vector for mutation.

They can be but the incidence is likely vanishingly small. Are you anti vaccination?


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[Deebased]

They can be but the incidence is likely vanishingly small. Are you anti vaccination?


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I'm pro-vax. But I don't think Vacs are the end-all solution as being posited.

I'm also pro-vax particularly as it resets the level for science to approach the battle.

Normalization usually aids in the battle.

[MultiVerse]

What am I missing?

C19 has jumped to at least 6 other species and there have been documented cases of it spreading in the wild. Not to mention as viruses go, the variants are pretty immature.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00531-z

You missed the second half of the post: It will be controllable because T cells, even after antibodies wane, protect against the spike protein and receptor binding domain of the virus. This study, for example, shows convalescent Covid survivors and mRNA vaccinees are not substantially affected by mutations found in the SARS-CoV-2 variants:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...180v1.full.pdf


If our T cell response against variants is preserved, which multiple studies indicate, people will be protected against disease. The T-cell response limits viral escape and mediates protection from disease caused by SARS2 variants.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

What am I missing?

C19 has jumped to at least 6 other species and there have been documented cases of it spreading in the wild. Not to mention as viruses go, the variants are pretty immature.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00531-z

The article you linked doesn’t really show too much concern about this and doesn’t even come to a conclusion either way.

Did you read and understand the study linked by Multiverse?

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[Adolf Allerbush]

You missed the second half of the post: It will be controllable because T cells, even after antibodies wane, protect against the spike protein and receptor binding domain of the virus. This study, for example, shows convalescent Covid survivors and mRNA vaccinees are not substantially affected by mutations found in the SARS-CoV-2 variants:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...180v1.full.pdf

Assumed Deeb response

I'm pro-vax. But but but but but but but but but but but but.

[Ted Striker]

I'm skipping a couple of pages to post this so it could be a rerun, but FFS Montucky, when you go Godwin you've lost.

[Game Over]

Certain over worked health care professionals sure do have a lot of spare time to aggressively post in here.

Assumed Deeb response

Im not sure who’s more anti-science-> those who imply that there is no point in vaccination because it’s not perfect…

Or those who refuse to acknowledge that breakthrough infections could possibly lead to future problems.

[SumJongGuy]

Certain over worked health care professionals sure do have a lot of spare time to aggressively post in here.

Blasting the messages intended to keep more people from showing up at their hospitals who can easily avoid that fate is an important part of their job..

[seano732]

Certain over worked health care professionals sure do have a lot of spare time to aggressively post in here.



Im not sure who’s more anti-science-> those who imply that there is no point in vaccination because it’s not perfect…

Or those who refuse to acknowledge that breakthrough infections could possibly lead to future problem.

I’m not an overworked healthcare worker, but I’ll speak on their behalf: Go fuck your self.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I’m not overworked, I’m still doing 3/12s Saturday-Monday and the odd call shift. If you’ve never had to care for a patient with Covid I guess you can’t understand what it’s like and how much more work and personnel it takes. You probably can’t understand the frustration that comes from taking care of critically ill and injured patients not knowing if we’ll have a bed with the appropriate level of care because the beds are full of unvaccinated Covid patients. Oh well.


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[Bunion 2020]

Short and to the point. There is also an ignore function.

[Mofro261]

What am I missing?

C19 has jumped to at least 6 other species and there have been documented cases of it spreading in the wild. Not to mention as viruses go, the variants are pretty immature.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00531-z

What your missing is the concept of genetic shift through recombination instead of genetic drift through accural of mutations. When Sars-2 starts recombining with the other Coronavirus strains of shown to infect humans or present in animals, then we can start talking about "like the flu".

Nobody seems to click the links but if you are interested on where the some of the info gets compiled and want to look at how the mutations stack up among the variants, this site is pretty good.

https://outbreak.info/compare-lineag...d=75&dark=true

[jono]

This podcast with the host of This Week in Virology was interesting:

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR...cD00NzQy?ep=14

Particularly notable that Ivermectin is owned--not just patented, but owned in the sense that they control it completely as a trade secret and no one else can make any--by Merck.

If you're concerned about big pharma and monopoly money you better not be promoting a single source questionable "cure" over proven options in a competitive marketplace. (For those interested, Bret Weinstein has lost it so bad that his brother even called him out on Twitter.)

[Adolf Allerbush]

I’m not an overworked healthcare worker, but I’ll speak on their behalf: Go fuck your self.

I don't get his point. No one here is arguing that vaccines are 100% at preventing any infection. Yes, in a vaccinated person with an active case of COVID-19 there could be mutation, it's just orders of magnitude more likely that mutations happen in the unvaccinated. Regardless, what's his point? that because a vaccinated person can get covid and the virus can mutate that we shouldn't vaccinate? If not, why bring it up at all? Again, everyone here already knows this but he and deeb and others will act like we don't.

[Dantheman]

(For those interested, Bret Weinstein has lost it so bad that his brother even called him out on Twitter.)

Holy shit. Link?

Regardless, what's his point? that because a vaccinated person can get covid and the virus can mutate that we shouldn't vaccinate?

It's like arguing that you shouldn't wear a seat belt because it might trap you in your car if crash into water.

[MultiVerse]

Or arguing since most people who die in car accidents are wearing seat belts, people shouldn't wear seat belts....