To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[Adolf Allerbush]

Yeah, variants are caused mostly by large populations being unvaccinated. While the media loves talking about scariants, none of the other variants right now can compete with Delta. And fully vaccinated people can already generate some antibodies against all the known variants. As we individually gain immunity we also collectively gain immunity and more immunity. So not right now of course, but it's going to be fine. The vaccinated immunocompetent neuter the virus and bring cases down. When a vaxxed person is exposed they gain even stronger hybrid immunity. Over time the virus is defanged becoming an endemic version we can live with.

You gotta love the message from dumbfuckery...comparing covid variants to a zombie apocalypse movie and insinuating we are on a similar trajectory. Lol

[MultiVerse]

I asked a question a few days ago--if anyone answered it I missed it. Are the schedules for the routine vaccines, most of which have 3-5 shots, based on antibody levels and other markers, or on increasing rates of clinical infection indicating inadequate immunity. Are the covid vaccines being subjected to closer scrutiny regarding boosters than other vaccines that have long required boosters?

Without speaking for other vaccines, for Covid there haven't been any randomized controlled trials to find out whether three shots vs. two shots meaningfully improve outcomes. So at the moment I don't think there is a direct answer to your question.

And as you already know antibodies, IgG and IgA, wane over time. It's natural for antibody levels to peak after vaccination or natural infection and then fall. It's normal. Blood would turn to sludge if antibodies after every infection or vaccination remained elevated over a lifetime.

The good news is there are Covid studies showing B cells and T cells provide durable lasting immunity capable of preventing severe disease. Other studies also show when the immune response kicks in it hobbles the virus rendering it less infectious as soon as possible. T cells in nose also help memory B cells produce new antibodies adapted to variants. Because vaccines create cellular memory, which quickly kicks into gear to produce antibodies and amplify T cells, the vaxxed aren't infectious to others for long.

Healthy vaccinated people should have confidence they're protected. The studies show this process does however take around 3-5 days. So without circulating antibodies people with comorbidities and age may not have a strong enough, quick enough, immune response to fight off the Delta variant which other studies show replicates faster and is anywhere from 2.0-2.4 times more deadly than Alpha among the unvaccinated.

So I think in addition to perhaps further solidifying immune memory, the purpose of a booster shot is to boost circulating antibodies in older or at risk people. For everyone else even if a third shot is recommended, since Covid isn't the flu folks shouldn't automatically assume annual boosters will become a thing.

[XXX-er]

You gotta love the message from dumbfuckery...comparing covid variants to a zombie apocalypse movie and insinuating we are on a similar trajectory. Lol

hey he did his research

[paulster2626]

Did I say we shouldn't try anywhere in my post? Now, who's the one jumping to conclusions?

I was merely expressing concern about the future variants. I know everyone here wants to just blame the unvaccinated among us, but seems that we're kind of misplacing that fear when every hard core variant comes from external places anyway. Again, see: Delta (India), Mu (Columbia), "Doomsday" (South Africa), etc. Not that we won't be cooking up something nasty on our own, thus I still very much get the need for vaccinating as many people domestically as possible. However, that doesn't negate my point. As long as someone, somewhere, anywhere on the planet has it, it will ALWAYS have a chance to spread all over again.

You've been presented with data that consistently shows the vaccines are effective against the Delta variant. Get your vaccine, protect yourself from serious disease and help end this thing. That's literally all you need to do, and when you're done, you can stop worrying or doing any more "research." It's liberating.

[SumJongGuy]

Healthy vaccinated people should have confidence they're protected. The studies show this process does however take around 3-5 days. So without circulating antibodies people with comorbidities and age may not have a strong enough, quick enough, immune response to fight off the Delta variant which other studies show replicates faster and is anywhere from 2.0-2.4 times more deadly than Alpha among the unvaccinated.

Some anecdotal evidence about two shots being the minimum. Wife has a coworker who dragged their heels and waited until August to get their first dose. Two weeks after the first dose they got sick and tested positive. Not quite hospital sick but stuck in bed level sick. Had they waited any longer for the first dose it could have been a vary bad outcome for them. Lesson to me is as soon as boosters are available for my demographic I won't drag my feet about getting one. A decline in antibodies is probably like only getting one of two..

[XXX-er]

there is actualy no way to tell if Vax hesitancy made a difference ^^ some people can have no symptoms or mild sypmtoms or really sick to recover

or die in ICU

the best thing to do is get a shot, even if you still get Covid its less likely to kill you,

I had my last shot in june which is purely anecdotal evidence

[SumJongGuy]

there is actualy no way to tell if Vax hesitancy made a difference ^^ some people can have no symptoms or mild sypmtoms or really sick to recover

or die in ICU

the best thing to do is get a shot, even if you still get Covid its less likely to kill you,

I had my last shot in june which is purely anecdotal evidence

My point was that they got shot one JUST in time. If they had waited any longer the exposure that infected them could have had far more devastating results without shot one. If they had gone sooner and had shot two instead of just shot one two weeks prior to that exposure, probably wouldn't have gotten sick at all..

[Mofro261]

Did I say we shouldn't try anywhere in my post? Now, who's the one jumping to conclusions?

I was merely expressing concern about the future variants. I know everyone here wants to just blame the unvaccinated among us, but seems that we're kind of misplacing that fear when every hard core variant comes from external places anyway. Again, see: Delta (India), Mu (Columbia), "Doomsday" (South Africa), etc. Not that we won't be cooking up something nasty on our own, thus I still very much get the need for vaccinating as many people domestically as possible. However, that doesn't negate my point. As long as someone, somewhere, anywhere on the planet has it, it will ALWAYS have a chance to spread all over again.

We had our own home grown variants- B.1.429 (California) was the first to document the L452R mutation found in Delta, the B.1.526 (NY, Iota) had the E484K mutation found in Beta, Gamma, Mu...the same mutations keep popping up, so far presenting a minimal level immune evasion potential but great potential for news cycle hysteria.

Like skiing in avalanche terrain. There is no piece of equipment that elimates all risk, but there are devices and actions we have to help minimize risk. We recognize that not wearing a transceiver since some people who wear transceivers still die in avalanches is not good risk management.

5.5 billion doses given worldwide.

[puma]

I thought this was funny.

https://www.newsandguts.com/video/li...SsAegUQ-LMKRQc

[Adolf Allerbush]

I thought this was funny.

https://www.newsandguts.com/video/li...SsAegUQ-LMKRQc

That's great. Hilarious.

[SumJongGuy]

According to this I might be "super human"....

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...me-individuals

[bennymac]

It’s quite the swing to go from “everything is fine in Florida and Texas” to “this is gonna be like a zombie apocalypse!”

Maybe if Dunning Kruger dipshits stopped doing their own research while denying reality and promoting bullshit on the internet a lot more people would have been vaccinated when the vaccines first were offered - which would actually accomplish something with regards to lowering the risk of variants and this zombie apocalypse situation.

[MultiVerse]

In fairness, a lot of the media coverage over the last couple of months in the US has essentially served to terrify the vaccinated and make the unvaccinated doubt the effectiveness of the vaccines.

[SumJongGuy]

In fairness, a lot of the media over the last couple of months in the US has essentially served to terrify the vaccinated and make the unvaccinated doubt the effectiveness of the vaccines.

Had we reached 75% of everyone vaccinated instead of the current 60% we might not be here with all the delta spread and breakthrough cases casting those doubts. I will agree that a lot of that boils down to not getting emergency FDA approval for children quicker.

[::: :::]

In fairness, a lot of the media coverage over the last couple of months in the US has essentially served to terrify the vaccinated and make the unvaccinated doubt the effectiveness of the vaccines.

Tho there is truth to that idea, I disagree that "mainstream media" was the main driver of media terror...in my eyes MSM sensationalism was more of a following symptom than a cause.

The hesistancy is a direct effect of both dangerous trolls (4-chan etc reaching into meatspace & trying to fuck with people for fun) & self-serving partisan sources that quite purposefully stated that traditional media can't be trusted and was just out to sell outrage & industry-lobby-interests.

Small, self-styled media outlets empowered by the cheap access to eyeballs encouraged outrage & sensationalism to their selfish benefit of driving clicks. Partisan outlets learned from the effect and cashed in, also encouraging new platforms dedicated to this newly profitable content sold to the folks looking for the confirmation-biased content shared via social media.

The disbelief was stoked quite apart from the pandemic & much earlier too

My observation fwiw

[MontuckyFried]

In fairness, a lot of the media coverage over the last couple of months in the US has essentially served to terrify the vaccinated and make the unvaccinated doubt the effectiveness of the vaccines.

Ding ding ding! ^^This guy gets it.

FTR, I am NOT being anti-vaccine here. However, people like bennymac and others here completely fail to grasp the point I was trying to make. How am I wrong in that even if we achieve 100% immunization, it will do jack shit about preventing variants from OTHER countries? Some of which the vaccine seems to offer great resistance toward, however others perhaps not so much. The only answer I'm hearing about are the so-called "boosters," but what's to say THOSE won't lose efficacy over time either too? Perhaps they won't. Perhaps it will be fine. I'm erring on the side of get your vaccine. Protec yourself. However, it's ok to wonder what things are going to look like later on down the road. People here are SO adverse to open conversation, though.

[MultiVerse]

The most important thing to keep in mind, especially when you read about variants or hear about vaccinated people getting infected, is in addition to producing antibodies vaccination also activates B cells and T cells which provide durable lasting immunity capable of taking on variants and also preventing severe disease.

[dunfree]

The “msm” as they generally do both-sided the issue dishonestly framing MDs vs some dishonest crank like Alex Berenson as “debate”.

[::: :::]

trying to be "right" about a micro-fraction of the distribution of effects doesn't make it a larger truth about the world

speculation that emphasizes the extremes is just sensationalism

[MontuckyFried]

The most important thing to keep in mind, especially when you read about variants or hear about vaccinated people getting infected, is vaccination results in B cells and T cells providing durable lasting immunity capable of taking on variants and also preventing severe disease.

Agreed. In the whole "ermargerd! teh antibodies!" conversation, too often people forget about that T-cell memory. I agree that vaccination should still prove to be a good safeguard long term regardless of antibody count.

[MontuckyFried]

speculation that emphasizes the extremes is just sensationalism

And thus, the news media. Definitely been sensationalizing the heck out of the scary sounding variants.

That said, they were kind of right about Delta being no freaking joke.

[rideit]

In fairness, if that boob Trump had his mouth duct taped shut in March of ‘20 we probably wouldn’t be in this quagmire of bitter partisan disinformation.

Ftfy

[Game Over]

Had we reached 75% of everyone vaccinated instead of the current 60% we might not be here with all the delta spread and breakthrough cases casting those doubts. I will agree that a lot of that boils down to not getting emergency FDA approval for children quicker.

Fellow mag sent me this yesterday

https://www.bing.com/search?q=missou...14ACD9A46A3BC2

We are only at 48.7% vaccinated

[::: :::]

And thus, the news media.

i don't really know what group you consider this to be
i'm referring to the sources at the center peak of this chart
https://www.adfontesmedia.com/intera...WebSite_Button
in that context, i think blaming the actual news media is fundamentally wrong

[JaytaeMoney]

In fairness, a lot of the media coverage over the last couple of months in the US has essentially served to terrify the vaccinated and make the unvaccinated doubt the effectiveness of the vaccines.

You're not the only person who reads the NYT daily emails buddy, I'm on to you