To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[mfcf13]

Yeah you're totally right, along with apparently 95% of the folks posting here. They don't matter, they are a small percentage, they don't go to restaurants, they can just get the vax.

#whiteprivilege

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It's hard to take your concern for non-whites seriously, when you have been using the same talking points as Texas Lt Governor (and nut job) Dan Patrick.
https://abc7chicago.com/dan-patrick-...ated/10966166/


Originally Posted by Peruvian
Plenty of rural poor here in VT, so vax stations have been set up at grocery stores, farmer's markets, on pullouts on the side of the road (I'm not kidding), or a simple phone call will get someone to come out to your house. Of course the VT culture is one of taking care of one another (see stories after Hurricane Irene for proof) as opposed to some bullshit rugged individualism, so folks do it for their neighbors instead of for themselves. We have over 85% of the population that has started vaccination, so maybe it's a model to consider.



SkiDog response: And what percentage of that population is non white may I ask?

[Skidog]

It's hard to take your concern for non-whites seriously, when you have been using the same talking points as Texas Lt Governor (and nut job) Dan Patrick.
https://abc7chicago.com/dan-patrick-...ated/10966166/


Originally Posted by Peruvian
Plenty of rural poor here in VT, so vax stations have been set up at grocery stores, farmer's markets, on pullouts on the side of the road (I'm not kidding), or a simple phone call will get someone to come out to your house. Of course the VT culture is one of taking care of one another (see stories after Hurricane Irene for proof) as opposed to some bullshit rugged individualism, so folks do it for their neighbors instead of for themselves. We have over 85% of the population that has started vaccination, so maybe it's a model to consider.



SkiDog response: And what percentage of that population is non white may I ask?

It's a totally valid ask. Comparing rural vt, to inner city NY and boroughs is laughable. The people in VT haven't been fucked over by the govt nearly their entire lives. How's the homeless population in old VT these days?

My talking points are mine. Just because some right wing nut has some like ideas means nothing.

I said it early on in the debate about vax ID,.there are many reasons besides my personal beliefs about freedoms at play here. The rural/low-income being a huge one going ignored.

Like Altasnob said, the ACLU is pretty fucking liberal and they have a problem with vax IDs. That says a lot.

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[californiagrown]

Deliver it to everyone via chemtrails.. I'm good with getting an extra dose to get those fools in the process..

Vaccine chemtrails will make the anti-maskers mask up real quick! win-win?

[Skidog]

It's hard to take your concern for non-whites seriously, when you have been using the same talking points as Texas Lt Governor (and nut job) Dan Patrick.
https://abc7chicago.com/dan-patrick-...ated/10966166/


Originally Posted by Peruvian
Plenty of rural poor here in VT, so vax stations have been set up at grocery stores, farmer's markets, on pullouts on the side of the road (I'm not kidding), or a simple phone call will get someone to come out to your house. Of course the VT culture is one of taking care of one another (see stories after Hurricane Irene for proof) as opposed to some bullshit rugged individualism, so folks do it for their neighbors instead of for themselves. We have over 85% of the population that has started vaccination, so maybe it's a model to consider.



SkiDog response: And what percentage of that population is non white may I ask?

80k homeless, no just low income, fucking homeless in NYC.

VT, whopping 2500 total.

Yeah samey same boss

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[MultiVerse]

Does it matter to ID opponents that any ID measures are unlikely to be rigorously enforced except selectively by the businesses themselves?

Let's say for example people agree in principle but are less concerned in practice. Assume nobody wants to see IDs become over-used in a scenario where people get asked for credentials at every turn. Instead consider it a temporary ad hoc measure to keep things going while also keeping hospitalizations down.

Because that's what I think is happening. It's an ad hoc reactive attempt to convince the unvaccinated to either get vaxxed or stay home until hospitalizations fall significantly. After all, prior to Delta discussions like these were mostly academic. That's why everyone prefaces their arguments by saying they think everyone should get vaxxed.

There's no secret strategy, there's no endgame, there's no doctrine, there's no internal agreement, there's no cost-benefit analysis, there's no concrete measurement for success—there's only getting hospitalizations down to keep businesses afloat in places where people would otherwise stay home.

[mfcf13]

It's a totally valid ask. Comparing rural vt, to inner city NY and boroughs is laughable. The people in VT haven't been fucked over by the govt nearly their entire lives. How's the homeless population in old VT these days?

My talking points are mine. Just because some right wing nut has some like ideas means nothing.

I said it early on in the debate about vax ID,.there are many reasons besides my personal beliefs about freedoms at play here. The rural/low-income being a huge one going ignored.

Like Altasnob said, the ACLU is pretty fucking liberal and they have a problem with vax IDs. That says a lot.

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If you happen to be spouting similar rhetoric as the TX Lt Governor, you might want to ask yourself why that's the case.

Your insinuation that unlike the VTers that Peruvian describes, non-whites don't have a sense of community and taking care of one another is whack.

Interesting thing is that non-whites who aren't getting vaccinated don't seem to be the ones screaming about freedoms at school board meetings, harassing people and lining up at the livestock store to buy some dewormer (except for Candace Owens and she doesn't count).

[mcski]

Deliver it to everyone via chemtrails.. I'm good with getting an extra dose to get those fools in the process..

I bet BGknight has some keen insights on that topic. Where’s that kook? This insanity is right in his wheelhouse lol

[KQ]

Ivarmectin?

keep clam!

[Skidog]

If you happen to be spouting similar rhetoric as the TX Lt Governor, you might want to ask yourself why that's the case.

Your insinuation that unlike the VTers that Peruvian describes, non-whites don't have a sense of community and taking care of one another is whack.

Interesting thing is that non-whites who aren't getting vaccinated don't seem to be the ones screaming about freedoms at school board meetings, harassing people and lining up at the livestock store to buy some dewormer (except for Candace Owens and she doesn't count).

Interesting you keep ignoring the very classes of people I'm discussing here. Low income, rural, and homeless. It's a fact the majority of these groups are minorities. Do you argue that they aren't? The CDC data is clear on those same groups having lower vax rates. Do you disagree with that statement? The ACLU has big issues and will likely fight any type of vax ID. Do you argue this is not the case?

I think things a lot of people think. Do you agree with everythng and every decision your chosen leaders make? I don't. Do you blanketly agree with everything your chosen leaders believe? I dont. Do I agree with many across the political spectrum? 100% you point about TX douche is mute. Never even heard to idiot talk. But if I have some like belief I am instantly a trumptard or right wing nut. You can't care about your freedoms if you aren't right?

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[skaredshtles]

<snip>
And for the record I ain't been carded in a bar or for booze in 20 years.

Guess what - after about 12 months of requiring a vaccine record to make sure you've had your COVID stab, nobody will have to show *that* any more either.

But, of course, we could just continue to fuck around... and then we'll find out as a society AGAIN what happens when you fuck around.

And again...

And again...

It's fucking ridiculous.

[KQ]

And our hospital has just advised citizens to be careful in their daily activities because there is no more room to take anyone but those who are dying.

Guess what - after about 12 months of requiring a vaccine record to make sure you've had your COVID stab, nobody will have to show *that* any more either.

But, of course, we could just continue to fuck around... and then we'll find out as a society AGAIN what happens when you fuck around.

And again...

And again...

It's fucking ridiculous.

Yeah... outta fucks to give. Gonna wear my mask, keep my distance and if required get a booster while I wait for this to end one way or another.

[skaredshtles]

And our hospital has just advised citizens to be careful in their daily activities because there is no more room to take anyone but those who are dying.

[Skidog]

Guess what - after about 12 months of requiring a vaccine record to make sure you've had your COVID stab, nobody will have to show *that* any more either.

But, of course, we could just continue to fuck around... and then we'll find out as a society AGAIN what happens when you fuck around.

And again...

And again...

It's fucking ridiculous.

And we can go on ignoring a huge segment of society..seems like that's what people want here. Do they go away if we ignore them?

What's your proposal for vaccinating, those that the CDC has said aren't getting vaxxed, to get vaxxed? You going to somehow make them trust the govt after all the shit they get? I'm sure they'll be lining up, so I can't wait to hear the solution.

You all still seem to ignore that I'm not making this up, the CDC has the stats. One of the reasons listed is "distrust of the govt" in low income and rural communities. Fuck I posted the links.

Y'all just keep talking around the facts. Doesn't fit what "you" want, can't be true. No way.

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[The SnowShow]

The faces of the crazy parents protesting masks in school. Can you imagine how awful it is to be the kid of these deranged idiots?

[altasnob]

How would you propose that this vax law be enforced?

I would be incredibly simple. Just like the health care mandate that required employers and insurance companies to issue a form to the IRS proving you had health insurance, each states' department of health could issue a form to the IRS proving the person is vaxed, and face a fine if not. And again, there is Supreme Court precedent for this and the law would not go into effect unless the current Supreme Court ruled it was constitutional. So there would be no legal argument against it. Of course, such a law will never get passed. So it is all just theoretical.

[mfcf13]

Interesting you keep ignoring the very classes of people I'm discussing here. Low income, rural, and homeless. It's a fact the majority of these groups are minorities. Do you argue that they aren't? The CDC data is clear on those same groups having lower vax rates. Do you disagree with that statement? The ACLU has big issues and will likely fight any type of vax ID. Do you argue this is not the case?

I think things a lot of people think. Do you agree with everythng and every decision your chosen leaders make? I don't. Do you blanketly agree with everything your chosen leaders believe? I dont. Do I agree with many across the political spectrum? 100% you point about TX douche is mute. Never even heard to idiot talk. But if I have some like belief I am instantly a trumptard or right wing nut. You can't care about your freedoms if you aren't right?

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I have a healthy distrust of politicians, just like you. When I was out on the streets protesting the Patriot Act, the same people who are now ranting at school board meetings about vaccines were yelling at us and calling us "unpatriotic".

And yes, I do agree that a lot of the pro-vaccine crowd isn't tuned into the issues that would prevent marginalized groups from getting a vaccine.

But you're completely off base in regards to the ACLU. They are fine with a vaccine passport system, as long as it is not all-digital (equity issues) and is decentralized and is not used to create a database (privacy issues). From their memo:
"When that happens and COVID comes to resemble other dangerous diseases where there are occasional flareups but little spread, such as measles, the need for a COVID passport will seem much less urgent. Nobody is demanding we provide proof of measles vaccination everywhere we go. And in the limited circumstances where such proof is required (school enrollment, some medical jobs, and some overseas travel), it’s far from clear that the existing system of paper documents is somehow deeply broken and in need of fixing."

https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-te...ine-passports/

They have concerns that if done poorly, it could lead to privacy and equity issues.

But no, the ACLU will not "fight any type of tax id".


Get your head out of your ass.

[Salvelinusconfluentus]

Interesting you keep ignoring the very classes of people I'm discussing here. Low income, rural, and homeless. It's a fact the majority of these groups are minorities. Do you argue that they aren't? The CDC data is clear on those same groups having lower vax rates. Do you disagree with that statement? The ACLU has big issues and will likely fight any type of vax ID. Do you argue this is not the case?

I think things a lot of people think. Do you agree with everythng and every decision your chosen leaders make? I don't. Do you blanketly agree with everything your chosen leaders believe? I dont. Do I agree with many across the political spectrum? 100% you point about TX douche is mute. Never even heard to idiot talk. But if I have some like belief I am instantly a trumptard or right wing nut. You can't care about your freedoms if you aren't right?

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Homeless/really low income people aren't that hard to get vaxxed. I bet a lot would do it for 100 bucks.

Cheaper than death on a ventilator, too.

[skaredshtles]

Homeless/really low income people aren't that hard to get vaxxed. I bet a lot would do it for 100 bucks.

Cheaper than death on a ventilator, too.

Seriously.

Skidog: "We've tried nothing, and are all out of ideas."

[altasnob]

Does it matter to ID opponents that any ID measures are unlikely to be rigorously enforced except selectively by the businesses themselves?

FWIW, my own position is any mandates or other interventions should be voluntary. At the same time, it should be recognized a lot of these measures are unenforced and as a result are de facto voluntary.

This is my major concern with vaccine IDs. They will be arbitrarily applied and enforced. Different enforcement in different states, different enforcement even in different cities within the same state. I don't like any laws where this occurs. Even worse, they will be most stringently enforced in the places that least need people to get vaccinated (soothing the blue people again).

And if you leave it up to businesses to decide whether to enforce it, it puts the burden on the business. The business may want people to be vaxed, but be reluctant to enforce the law because they don't want to enter that culture war (which could affect the business well after the pandemic is over).

I look at this problem as similar to leave no trace principles when camping in wilderness. Sure, there are laws against littering in wilderness. But that's not what stops people from doing it. And some people do litter in wilderness and that sucks. But overall, we've created a culture where that is not acceptable. I know this doesn't solve the problem quickly, but long term, I think it is the best option.

[Skidog]

Homeless/really low income people aren't that hard to get vaxxed. I bet a lot would do it for 100 bucks.

Cheaper than death on a ventilator, too.

They've tried that...still little uptick. Sorry man it's deeper than you believe. It would seem so simple, I agree....they just aren't doing it. Distrust.

As for the ACLU, we shall see what the govt attempts to implement before they make a final statement. My guess is there will be no serious push for "mandatory vax ID". It would fail miserably.

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[funkendrenchman]

They've tried that...still little uptick. Sorry man it's deeper than you believe. It would seem so simple, I agree....they just aren't doing it. Distrust.

As for the ACLU, we shall see what the govt attempts to implement before they make a final statement. My guess is there will be no serious push for "mandatory vax ID". It would fail miserably.

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So, what's your solution?

[Mazderati]

They were better in Absolutely Fabulous.

[Skidog]

So, what's your solution?

I wish I fucking had one as I have stated many times. My argument is only it's a valid reason to question a "vax ID" for a bigger segment of society than many wish to believe. Kinda sad really.

The facts still remain. Nothing I have said is ridiculous in regards to the population segment in question.

I hope we can find a way to get everyone eligible vaxxed. I too believe it's the only way to get out of this mess.

I would also carry a "vax ID" if a law was passed requiring it, that hasn't happened. Listen I follow the rules of society, I dont have to agree with them all.

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[mcski]

And we can go on ignoring a huge segment of society..seems like that's what people want here. Do they go away if we ignore them?

What's your proposal for vaccinating, those that the CDC has said aren't getting vaxxed, to get vaxxed? You going to somehow make them trust the govt after all the shit they get? I'm sure they'll be lining up, so I can't wait to hear the solution.

You all still seem to ignore that I'm not making this up, the CDC has the stats. One of the reasons listed is "distrust of the govt" in low income and rural communities. Fuck I posted the links.

Y'all just keep talking around the facts. Doesn't fit what "you" want, can't be true. No way.

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Dude you are so disingenuous the circular logic is giving me whiplash. You ignore countless attempts to get you to answer the question then revert to some other strawman or red herring. You don’t have a privacy argument so now you’re about about protecting the poor. Gtfo w your bs, your thrunting is borderline troll

[MultiVerse]

This is my major concern with vaccine IDs. They will be arbitrarily applied and enforced. Different enforcement in different states, different enforcement even in different cities within the same state. I don't like any laws where this occurs. Even worse, they will be most stringently enforced in the places that least need people to get vaccinated (soothing the blue people again).

And if you leave it up to businesses to decide whether to enforce it, it puts the burden on the business. The business may want people to be vaxed, but be reluctant to enforce the law because they don't want to enter that culture war (which could affect the business well after the pandemic is over).

I look at this problem as similar to leave no trace principles when camping in wilderness. Sure, there are laws against littering in wilderness. But that's not what stops people from doing it. And some people do litter in wilderness and that sucks. But overall, we've created a culture where that is not acceptable. I know this doesn't solve the problem quickly, but long term, I think it is the best option.

In case you haven't been paying attention, arbitrarily applied and enforced is the best we can do at this point. In upscale places like NY and SF it works for business to refuse unvaxxed customers because that's what their majority vaxxed customers want. It gives those businesses cover. In other places the opposite happens:

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...90#post6393290

If your solution to some pressing problem relies on "if everyone would just.." then you do not have a solution. At no time in the history of the universe has everyone just, and they're not going to start now.