WOOT WOOT! Nukin' in Missoula

[stuckathuntermtn]

Was anyone at Losttrail today? Looked rad in a video they posted. Surprised they were even open. Guess I dropped the ball on that one.

[S_jenks]

Oh man I have been pent up waiting for the chance to get out. Snowbowl delaying their opening certainly is a bummer, and I just hadn’t been willing to make the drives anywhere for skimpy conditions. Good for getting work done I suppose, and nordorking helps as well.

Big questions about these upcoming series of storms. Hopefully we can grow the base a good amount.

[byates1]

^^ lost trail was soft and pleasant today..

[stuckathuntermtn]

Lookout was alright. There was still pow in the trees.
I don't understand why Snowbowl can't or won't open. Are they just being too cheap to make snow along Spartan, amd Sunrise, and Paradise, and groom it up to rip up all the bushes and saplings?
Again, I don't love man-made snow, but if it gets the ski area open and gets us a base down low, FUCKING DO IT.

[Iowagriz]

What low temp is required to make snow? Low 20s? Maybe higher with good equipment, but you know they don't have state of the art.

Last week of overnight lows have been what, high 20s?

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

[stuckathuntermtn]

Pretty sure it's anything below 32 degrees Fahrenheit. It's a fine mist of water. If it's below freezing, the mist freezes into a facsimile of snow. I have read there are some basic additives to help it condense, but that doesn't sound right.

That's it, afaik.


Wikipedia says high relative humidity lowers the temp needed, but yeah, upper 20's even at 90%. In other words, other than a few days this week, it's been cold enough. And it's been cold enough every night.

My guess is economics. Ie they're being cheap and don't wanna pay for the electricity. Or something is broken and they don't wanna pay to get it fixed. IDK what their capacity is with those little ponds, but it's enough that Sunrise and Paradise can be pretty well filled in and bulletproof (the joys of man-made snow).

If anyone can speak more on the logistics of this, go right ahead, but I'm sticking to "cheap assholes" unless I hear differently.

[2Harsh]

Brad and Ronnie, the owners at SB have a reputation for being "frugal". Just say'in

[wordbird]

There's a lot to ski around Missoula that doesn't involve Snowbowl. Spend a morning drinking coffee and pouring over maps/Google Earth, find your zone and then go out and explore. If you wait around for Snowbowl, shit really has to line up in your favor, there's some legit hurdles to overcome - low elevation, south facing, no particularly advantageous topographic features for localized precip, aging infrastructure and management that isn't overly ambitious.

With his fitness level, Lolo is the only possible option.

[anotherVTskibum]

On the subject of snowmaking, back in the late 90s, Sunday River, Maine, advertised that they could make snow to a wet bulb of 38 degrees (so 38 degrees at zero humidity). As it was explained to me, the water droplets expanding as they leave the nozzle creates a cooling effect, allowing for crystallization above 32 degrees.

As already noted, having something to crystalize around helps; if your water has enough turbidity, you don't need additives; if it's super clean, they will help (and that's where snomax comes in).

With all that said, between the additives and the necessary air-to-water ratio at high temps, plus the added difficulty of creating skiable snow rather than base-building sludge at those temperatures, the cost is huge and the benefit isn't always so great. A lot of the snowmaking-heavy East Coast areas will skip warmer windows when they can, because the same power and labor budget puts far more snow on the hill when it's cold out.

Sent from my SM-G892A using TGR Forums mobile app

[stuckathuntermtn]

There's a lot to ski around Missoula that doesn't involve Snowbowl. Spend a morning drinking coffee and pouring over maps/Google Earth, find your zone and then go out and explore. If you wait around for Snowbowl, shit really has to line up in your favor, there's some legit hurdles to overcome - low elevation, south facing, no particularly advantageous topographic features for localized precip, aging infrastructure and management that isn't overly ambitious.

You gonna give me a Dynafit set up? Otherwise I have these big heavy things to haul around all by myself in the woods while the avy danger forecast jumps up to at least Considerable. Also you seem to be missing the point about how I paid money, and normally when someone pays for something, they expect goods and services in return. I didn't give them $650 for fucking charity. If you want to have a Too Hardcore For Lifts pissing match, I'm sure there's plenty of rando dudes you can find at the night races or at 5am at the Bowl gate. I'm not peeing on that bush.

[stuckathuntermtn]

With his fitness level, Lolo is the only possible option.

Isn't odd that I didn't become an expert at something I'd never done before right away? Wow!
You wanna try to make a joke at my expense? Ok, you're a shitty teacher and a poor guide. Should we talk about your lack of basic knowledge of domesticated house pets? I'd rather skip that one, but if you don't wanna play nice anymore, I've never had any problem burning bridges like I'm General Sherman coming up in Atlanta. We hung out less than half a dozen times. I don't know what you think you know about me, but you don't. I promise.

[stuckathuntermtn]

On a positive note that is more to the point, I am told that ski patrol was told to get things ready for opening very soon. We'll see if this storm does more than rain on our parade. Fucking global warming. I had high hopes for this winter and instead we're just getting high temps and dampness.

[2FUNKY]

Chill bro, winter starts tomorrow. I’ve seen this scenario play out before with it snow like crazy jan-april. Shoulda hit Silver yesterday, it was killer.

[Rasputin]

The snow makers I've known over the years at Snowbowl (most of who were from New Hampshire) said it wasn't worth trying over 22 degrees. Very little of the terrain at Snowbowl even has hydrants for snow making, so any expectation that a lack of snowmaking is what's preventing their opening is ignorant. They make snow on Sunrise Bowl, Lower Paradise, lower Longhorn, The Outrun, and Spartan Headwall which only has mist wands, not the vastly superior snowguns.

The idea that they aren't opening, because they don't want to spend money on making snow, is unfounded. This is the time of year they assure profitability by selling tickets and lessons to kids out of school, the last thing they want is to be closed.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Ok, I get the 22 degrees thing, but it's been that cold plenty, and and Stuart Mountain Snotel shows over 30".
Are you telling me the gap in snowmaking and natural coverage is that big and that they can't make ANYTHING safe to ski?
Again, I'm saying that I don't know things, but my impression of the way they run shit that I've seen in over 10 years is that they do very little in maintenance and improvement. Okay, they did expand into some new terrain, but even that they did in a really stingy way with an old lift that could hit you in the head and barely cleared the trails, especially considering it's in a place that's not gonna get a lot of snow.
Not only that, but people applaud them for some reason when they clear 500' of a run finally. And I don't mean vertical feet. That is an extremely low bar to be excited for IMHO.
So, you're saying economics has nothing to do with this? That it's bear earth at 6,000'? I mean, it's possible, but it doesn't seem probable.
And if this is so, they are gonna need to upgrade their snowmaking capacity in order to open in December. So, ya know, spending money where it matters, like they don't do.

[2Harsh]

Too bad Corona won't make it possible for you two to safely kiss and make up in the SB parking lot this season. Maybe a masked up reach around instead?

Isn't odd that I didn't become an expert at something I'd never done before right away? Wow!
You wanna try to make a joke at my expense? Ok, you're a shitty teacher and a poor guide. Should we talk about your lack of basic knowledge of domesticated house pets? I'd rather skip that one, but if you don't wanna play nice anymore, I've never had any problem burning bridges like I'm General Sherman coming up in Atlanta. We hung out less than half a dozen times. I don't know what you think you know about me, but you don't. I promise.

[wordbird]

Isn't odd that I didn't become an expert at something I'd never done before right away? Wow!
You wanna try to make a joke at my expense? Ok, you're a shitty teacher and a poor guide. Should we talk about your lack of basic knowledge of domesticated house pets? I'd rather skip that one, but if you don't wanna play nice anymore, I've never had any problem burning bridges like I'm General Sherman coming up in Atlanta. We hung out less than half a dozen times. I don't know what you think you know about me, but you don't. I promise.

It's not about you, I'm just doing my part to keep this thread entertaining.

edit: appropriate post for my post count

[margotron]

It is about economics. But not in the way everyone is thinking.

Every weekend that snowbowl doesn't open costs them money. You think they make their money on lift tickets? lol. They are terrified they won't be able to sell enough beer & food due to the pandemic -- which is where they make their money. They want to be open more than you want them to be open.

[mtskier]

I'm not trying to give credence to any unfounded theories but....Don G skied the bowl Sunday and he said that the snow down low was fine and that he had skied worse days at snowbowl when the lifts were actually spinning. He also said that Lavelle was "full on winter."

So while we might not know what snowbowl is thinking, something is def very strange this season. Usually making some money is better than being closed, although not always the case.

Opening day is usually shit anyway. Let folks ski and find out and help set up the base.

[RootSkier]

1. It is not unheard of for there to be essentially no snow at this point and for the Bowl to open in late December.

2. I do not recall a time when they did not open the top when there was more than 36" at the Stuart Peak Snotel. There is currently 39" with 10" (!) of SWE.

[stuckathuntermtn]

It is about economics. But not in the way everyone is thinking.

Every weekend that snowbowl doesn't open costs them money. You think they make their money on lift tickets? lol. They are terrified they won't be able to sell enough beer & food due to the pandemic -- which is where they make their money. They want to be open more than you want them to be open.

That's a good point. But we who bought passes prepaid to ride their lifts, not eat at the bar.

Tuesday would be a good day if they fucking open.

[RootSkier]

Supposed to rain to 7000' today...that should pack 'er down.

[mtskier]

1. It is not unheard of for there to be essentially no snow at this point and for the Bowl to open in late December.

2. I do not recall a time when they did not open the top when there was more than 36" at the Stuart Peak Snotel. There is currently 39" with 10" (!) of SWE.

But this is by far the latest opening in the past 15 years. The webcam shows good coverage at the bottom.

Thankfully, there is another storm on way.

[toast2266]

Hadn't realized snowbowl wasn't open yet. That seems late.

For whatever it's worth, when Whitefish had ~35" at the top, the lower mountain was pretty grim. Up until this most recent storm cycle, there was very, very little natural snow down low. It seems like there was a bigger disparity between the snowpack up high vs. down low than normal. I'm guessing the situation is similar at Snowbowl.

Whitefish put way more energy into blowing snow this year so they could get a white ribbon of death open down the frontside, so as to avoid having to download. The backside (which is higher) skied pretty well on opening day, but even with all the man-made snow, the frontside was a choice mix of ice and gravel for the first 2 weeks or so. I'm always surprised how much of a beating even the low angle cat tracks take. Stuff that I've been skiing since October during pre-season hikes and seems totally fine. But then they open it to the lift served public and send thousands of people down it, and it gets scraped down to dirt way quicker than you'd think. I used to bitch about Whitefish delaying opening the frontside a lot more, but then every year when they do finally open it, conditions get so terrible so quickly that I've started to (grudgingly) give them the benefit of the doubt.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Well, yeah, that's why you need man-made snow. Lift lines and cat tracks and even certain groomers get beat the fuck up.


Housemate is scheduled to be on Griz lift tomorrow and it's gonna be puking! Will let you know if anything changes.