2020 Wildfire Season

[bodywhomper]

Anybody know how to look up the approx size of the back burns for the North Complex Fire in Plumas/Butte/Yuba County? It was a multi-day burn.

[old goat]

"avalanches, forest fires, hurricanes, tornadoes, mudslides, floods" to which I would add earthquakes and drought. Especially drought when you consider the depletion of groundwater west of the 100th meridian. (credit to Wallace Stegner and John Wesley Powell.) The problem is that a very large percentage of Americans live in "stupid zones", and a very large percentage of the world's population does as well.. The underlying problem is that the human race insists on building permanent structures on an impermanent planet. Our prehistoric ancestors knew better.

As far as all the people living in the woods in California--a lot of them are there because they can't afford to live anywhere else.

"oh god, pride of man, broken in the dust again"

[bodywhomper]

Several of CAs wildfires have left the designated WUI and enter built-out towns like Calistoga and Santa Rosa outside of the WUI and outside of the zones currently designated as having a wildfire hazard, per the states wildfire hazard severity zone maps.

[Meadow Skipper]

Several of CAs wildfires have left the designated WUI and enter built-out towns like Calistoga and Santa Rosa outside of the WUI and outside of the zones currently designated as having a wildfire hazard, per the states wildfire hazard severity zone maps.

Yeah, seems the concept of “interface” is becoming kind of outdated. That’s an interesting thought.

BTW I’ve never seen the acreage of “back burning” collected statistically. There might be some reference to it in the incident archives or action plans, but I just can’t recall it ever being reported or available online.

[Meadow Skipper]

As far as all the people living in the woods in California--a lot of them are there because they can't afford to live anywhere else.

That’s an excellent point, and a major roadblock to altasnob’s urban utopian vision.

"oh god, pride of man, broken in the dust again"

Good one.

[KQ]

Yep. Read any/every thing Stephen Pyne has written if you’re at all interested in the historical and social aspect of wildfire. The guy is observant and learned, and he nails it.

He’s where I got my point of view that we're just going to have to learn to live with fire.

thumbs up!

Here's a question for all you fire folk. During the labor day wind storm we had a line came down on my property in the trees along the river (along the edge of my onion field). I'm thinking that it came down after the power went out at 4pm because about 5-10mins after the power came back on at 8pm my neighbor called to tell me I had a fire on my property.

First off - thank goodness it was 8pm when someone was awake to see it and not 2am when it would have spread unchecked.

Secondly - is there anything that can be done to prevent such a situation from happening again? Can't the power company tell a line was down before they power up?

Here's my little fire.

[Meadow Skipper]

thumbs up!

Here's a question for all you fire folk. During the labor day wind storm we had a line came down on my property in the trees along the river (along the edge of my onion field). I'm thinking that it came down after the power went out at 4pm because about 5-10mins after the power came back on at 8pm my neighbor called to tell me I had a fire on my property.

First off - thank goodness it was 8pm when someone was awake to see it and not 2am when it would have spread unchecked.

Actually, thank goodness that didn’t happen at 3 pm when it was hot and windy.

Secondly - is there anything that can be done to prevent such a situation from happening again? Can't the power company tell a line was down before they power up?

I think that question is more for utility folks.

[hawkgt]

all depends on power company and investment in tech. usually the sub station will trip with a down line, then go into a re-start / self check / full shut down. at a min trip the circuit to save the rest of grid, send a signal to monitors and then if smart enough can re-route the power to open grids.

there is a company in W2 that is a world leader in the industry.

[KQ]

Actually, thank goodness that didn’t happen at 3 pm when it was hot and windy.

Yes, we were fortunate that the winds had died down considerably by then and that the onion field had been recently planted.

all depends on power company and investment in tech. usually the sub station will trip with a down line, then go into a re-start / self check / full shut down. at a min trip the circuit to save the rest of grid, send a signal to monitors and then if smart enough can re-route the power to open grids.

there is a company in W2 that is a world leader in the industry.

Really? Does Pacific Power know?

[bodywhomper]

Yeah, seems the concept of “interface” is becoming kind of outdated. That’s an interesting thought.

BTW I’ve never seen the acreage of “back burning” collected statistically. There might be some reference to it in the incident archives or action plans, but I just can’t recall it ever being reported or available online.

I agree about the “interface.” Santa Rosa actually has a map of their “WUI.” I’ve mentioned before, but the state is reconsidering how they map their fire severity zones, and the state is reconsidering property setback requirements in suburbs because there’s often inadequate defensible space between suburban homes. Also biomass mulch in xeriscape yards.

The back burn stuff... thanks. I’ll dig deeper.

[DJSapp]

Secondly - is there anything that can be done to prevent such a situation from happening again? Can't the power company tell a line was down before they power up?

I know in CA the system defaults to power cycling a faulted line 3 times to attempt to clear it before shutting down. A typical fowled line (i.e. branch crossing) will be blown off with the first or second hit and won't require maintenance to come manually clear it. By the third hit, if it doesn't detect fault, power is back up. If it is down, it stays down.

Not sure what it takes to override this system, as I believe it is wired into the local PLC's and may not run back to a area command center.

[Meadow Skipper]

The back burn stuff... thanks. I’ll dig deeper.

Let me know what you find out. IME when conducting or overseeing burn operations at wildfires, I was mostly concerned with the length of control line involved and the linear distance to the flame front.

[bodywhomper]

I know in CA the system defaults to power cycling a faulted line 3 times to attempt to clear it before shutting down. A typical fowled line (i.e. branch crossing) will be blown off with the first or second hit and won't require maintenance to come manually clear it. By the third hit, if it doesn't detect fault, power is back up. If it is down, it stays down.

Not sure what it takes to override this system, as I believe it is wired into the local PLC's and may not run back to a area command center.

i'm not sure this is the case anymore at least in some areas of PG&E's system. the new hardware on the circuit in my neighborhood (installed this year) is supposed to shut down with a single hit (branch crossing).

Let me know what you find out. IME when conducting or overseeing burn operations at wildfires, I was mostly concerned with the length of control line involved and the linear distance to the flame front.

makes sense. i'm thinking along the lines of how "easy" it is during a wildfire event to set dozer lines and burns (for good reason), but it's really difficult and takes multiple years of planning to get that sort of work permitted and approved as planned hazard mitigation. for instance, dozers and control burns are occurring right now in annadel SP, which is full of cultural and protected resources. i believe they have a hard enough time getting approvals to build new bike trails let alone a fuel or fire break when the area is not burning.

[old goat]

thumbs up!

Here's a question for all you fire folk. During the labor day wind storm we had a line came down on my property in the trees along the river (along the edge of my onion field). I'm thinking that it came down after the power went out at 4pm because about 5-10mins after the power came back on at 8pm my neighbor called to tell me I had a fire on my property.

First off - thank goodness it was 8pm when someone was awake to see it and not 2am when it would have spread unchecked.

Secondly - is there anything that can be done to prevent such a situation from happening again? Can't the power company tell a line was down before they power up?

Here's my little fire.

I recall reading that when PGE first started preventative shutdowns in CA, it took them a couple of days to power back up because they had to check every line individually to make sure it wasn't damaged--these were very large areas of blackout. I have no idea what that actually involves and whether that's still the case or if they can get power restored faster now.

[splat]

Did you get the blackouts in the Truckee area, OG?

[Meadow Skipper]

i'm thinking along the lines of how "easy" it is during a wildfire event to set dozer lines and burns (for good reason), but it's really difficult and takes multiple years of planning to get that sort of work permitted and approved as planned hazard mitigation. for instance, dozers and control burns are occurring right now in annadel SP, which is full of cultural and protected resources. i believe they have a hard enough time getting approvals to build new bike trails let alone a fuel or fire break when the area is not burning.

I don't know about state or private lands, but federal lands all have previously established (reviewed and approved) fire management plans which outline the permitted suppression methods for each area, including where heavy equipment use is or isn't allowed. Different discipline specialists are involved, like wildlife, archaeology, watershed, etc. and public review and input is offered before management signs off on it. Like most government planning, it's generally a long and complex process, but it happens.

[char_]

I don't know about state or private lands, but federal lands all have previously established (reviewed and approved) fire management plans which outline the permitted suppression methods for each area, including where heavy equipment use is or isn't allowed. Different discipline specialists are involved, like wildlife, archaeology, watershed, etc. and public review and input is offered before management signs off on it. Like most government planning, it's generally a long and complex process, but it happens.

It's actually amazing how well some of that is mapped and understood.

But, he has a point right? We treat miles and miles and miles of roadside vegetation for indirect fire lines that never get used with feller bunchers and skidders now. Then they sell the log decks after the fact. Something that would take much more public process if it wasn't a fire.

[Meadow Skipper]

It's actually amazing how well some of that is mapped and understood.

But, he has a point right? We treat miles and miles and miles of roadside vegetation for indirect fire lines that never get used with feller bunchers and skidders now. Then they sell the log decks after the fact. Something that would take much more public process if it wasn't a fire.

True enough.

[bodywhomper]

That’s the point that I’m getting at^^

Other examples, Annadel State Park has a known red legged frog population. I would imagine that’s not being closely considered with precon surveys, buffers, etc. before they put in their dozer line and did their back burn because it’s completely unrealistic. I bet there is no communication with the usfws or cdfw (maybe I’m wrong) before they did the work. A lot of historic and prehistoric stuff in that park, too. Also, post-fire hazard tree removal, if it’s on federal land or has federal $$, there’ll be archaeologists and tribes involved and often monitoring will occur amongst a bunch of other stuff. Of course, that is not the case in the midst of suppression efforts.

Oldgoat, pge still inspects lines before reenergizing. Usually by helicopter. There was an article last week about multiple locations that were damaged after the Labor Day weekend PSPS (found during inspections before re-energizing the lines).

[char_]

That’s the point that I’m getting at^^

Other examples, Annadel State Park has a known red legged frog population. I would imagine that’s not being closely considered with precon surveys, buffers, etc. before they put in their dozer line and did their back burn because it’s completely unrealistic. I bet there is no communication with the usfws or cdfw (maybe I’m wrong) before they did the work. A lot of historic and prehistoric stuff in that park, too. Also, post-fire hazard tree removal, if it’s on federal land or has federal $$, there’ll be archaeologists and tribes involved and often monitoring will occur amongst a bunch of other stuff. Of course, that is not the case in the midst of suppression efforts.

Oldgoat, pge still inspects lines before reenergizing. Usually by helicopter. There was an article last week about multiple locations that were damaged after the Labor Day weekend PSPS (found during inspections before re-energizing the lines).

IME - if the resource warrants it, they will assign a fire qualified resource advisor to work with the fireline crews to minimize impacts as best as possible. This might mean taking more acreage or constructing handline instead of dozer line.

I know in N Cal (Happy Camp area), they have archaeological resources dotting the ridgelines, so lots of handline was constructed on ridges or surveys were made instead of just dropping in a dozer line.

[gravitylover]

"oh god, pride of man, broken in the dust again"

I don't think I've ever seen a Quicksilver song quoted. That sent me down a John Cippolina YouTube rabbit hole. Thanx

[old goat]

Did you get the blackouts in the Truckee area, OG?

we haven't had any weather related blackouts, just 2 blackouts for a few hours, presumably the usual barbecued squirrel. Truckee isn't on the CA grid. It gets power over the Sierra Pacific lines, from NV Energy I think, and others.

[old goat]

i'm not sure this is the case anymore at least in some areas of PG&E's system. the new hardware on the circuit in my neighborhood (installed this year) is supposed to shut down with a single hit (branch crossing).



makes sense. i'm thinking along the lines of how "easy" it is during a wildfire event to set dozer lines and burns (for good reason), but it's really difficult and takes multiple years of planning to get that sort of work permitted and approved as planned hazard mitigation. for instance, dozers and control burns are occurring right now in annadel SP, which is full of cultural and protected resources. i believe they have a hard enough time getting approvals to build new bike trails let alone a fuel or fire break when the area is not burning.

How much good does a dozer line do when fires are jumping I80 and the Columbia River?

I don't think I've ever seen a Quicksilver song quoted.

Maybe because they mostly do instrumentals : ). The ending of The Fool contains the single greatest note in rock history IMO at about 11:20 --and a few pretty good ones after.

[Meadow Skipper]

How much good does a dozer line do when fires are jumping I80 and the Columbia River?

SOP: Dozer lines almost always have to be burned from (backfired, burned out, “back burned”) to widen them.

Maybe because they mostly do instrumentals : ). The ending of The Fool contains the single greatest note in rock history IMO at about 11:20 --and a few pretty good ones after.

Right on. I consider “Who Do You Love” to be top ten of all time. Play it at my funeral.

[Meadow Skipper]

How much good does a dozer line do when fires are jumping I80 and the Columbia River?

SOP: Dozer lines almost always have to be burned from (backfired, burned out, “back burned”) to widen them.

Maybe because they mostly do instrumentals : ). The ending of The Fool contains the single greatest note in rock history IMO at about 11:20 --and a few pretty good ones after.

Right on. I consider “Who Do You Love” to be top ten of all time. Play it at my funeral.