Fear and Loathing, a Rat Flu Odyssey

[summit]

Why not a business or school hallway or elevator?

Within that small space you are dealing with droplets primarily, and the time a person is in there is short (perhaps 2 or 3 minutes at most). Therefor there shouldn't be a bunch of infectious PM generated floating about, and exposure times of others passing through are short as well. This minimizes the chance of infection (# of viral particles) to what would logically be negligible levels.

In hospital we don't consider hallways or elevators to be worthy of closure, cleaning, or airborne precautions, when transporting a suspected COVID patient. You mask/filter patient and keep people 2m back. Exceptions if there is some major aerosol generating procedure. If you code and tube the patient in the hallway that is a different story, just like a measles patient coughing in the waiting room for 30 minutes.

[Rideski]

Interesting. I think this has been asked before, but if people keep getting tiny doses like that day after day, will that lead to immunity?

[summit]

Interesting. I think this has been asked before, but if people keep getting tiny doses like that day after day, will that lead to immunity?

I'll have to punt that question to Mofro as I can only speculate.

[Danno]

That is certainly the prevailing theory. I still don’t understand the part where if it’s on your hands and you touch your eyes nose mouth, bad. But if it’s on food, you can put it in your mouth and no problem.

This has been bothering me, and I have posted similar questions/statements in this thread, and nobody seems to know. We're told to disinfect packages and groceries coming into our house in some PSAs/articles/posts, and yet we're also told in other PSAs/articles/posts that ordering delivery or takeout is totally safe, that the virus is only problematic if inhaled.

Those seem contradictory to me.

[old goat]

More on the droplet vs aerosol discussion. Ten people, out of 91 potential, in a restaurant were infected if they sat at the same table as the infectious person or sat at tables directly in line with AC ducts spreading larger droplets. None of the staff or people sitting at other tables were infected by small aerosolized droplets.

It's another data point suggesting properly used masks offer protection. The researches advise "better temperature-monitoring surveillance, increasing the distance between tables, and improving ventilation." Which, FWIW, are things the TGR crowd here proposed some time ago back when Rat Flu was just a worry dream. #notallpolyass

Attachment 325839

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-0764_article

We should all wear masks when we go to restaurants. Defeat Covid and the obesity epidemic at the same time.

This has been bothering me, and I have posted similar questions/statements in this thread, and nobody seems to know. We're told to disinfect packages and groceries coming into our house in some PSAs/articles/posts, and yet we're also told in other PSAs/articles/posts that ordering delivery or takeout is totally safe, that the virus is only problematic if inhaled.

Those seem contradictory to me.

I'm no expert; maybe there is better evidence for one statement than for the other, but it seems to me that there is absolutely nothing about this infection that we are certain of. In regards to this particular issue, one can test for the virus on various surfaces--like your groceries, but showing that that is an actual mode of transmission or that it is not is very difficult. Given the long incubation period and the number of potential sources of transmissions a victim might have during that time, how does one determine which interaction was the source. Was it the guy I passed on the street 5 feet away? The grocery cart? I think it's fair to say that the more disinfecting you do the more you lower the risk, but by how much?

The thing that bugs me are gloves. Non-sterile gloves are no safer than your hands, unless you just wiped your nose on the back of your hand and then put the gloves on. I would much rather see the grocery checker or the person at the carry out restaurant wash or disinfect their ungloved hands between each customer and over and over during the day. The gloves give a false sense of security and are a poor substitute for washing or disinfecting. When non sterile gloves are used in a health are setting they are removed between each patient but that's not what's happening in stores and carry-outs.

[MultiVerse]

Can you link the 3300 study?

I know you and many others already know that we need to approach these studies, especially ones awaiting peer review, especially results from China, with humility and skepticism but it's still worth mentioning that we should avoid statements like "X percent already has immunity or can't be transmitted outdoors" etc. without a lot more evidence.

That said, and I'm working off of memory from a couple of weeks ago because the PDF sever is timing out, the 3,300 number was the total case reports which was whittled down to 1245 confirmed cases, with a single outbreak in an outdoor environment, then they identified outbreaks of three or more cases all of which occurred in an indoor environment according to the abstract:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....04.20053058v1

We should all wear masks when we go to restaurants. Defeat Covid and the obesity epidemic at the same time.

Heh, that occurred to me too but the takeaway wasn't restaurants per se just the general conclusion masks likely help in unhygienic poorly ventilated environments.

[jono]

This has been bothering me, and I have posted similar questions/statements in this thread, and nobody seems to know. We're told to disinfect packages and groceries coming into our house in some PSAs/articles/posts, and yet we're also told in other PSAs/articles/posts that ordering delivery or takeout is totally safe, that the virus is only problematic if inhaled.

Those seem contradictory to me.

... most prepared food is hot, so most is probably safe. But I'm not buying salads or cold subs right now.

I’m only eating by shoving sterilized tubes down my throat right to the stomach. No contamination.

It's just a matter of converting the public health concept to personal procedure. Public health isn't giving all the details, but if you look into it a little bit you notice it's possible to stay perfectly safe with the help of very custom PPE--although Ottime's description may be a bit cavalier: public health specialists would surely advise you only to insert sterile tubing with the help of your personal physician. Because while Ottime surely knows how to shove it down safely, we can't have just everyone cramming in tubes all willy nilly.

[XXX-er]

hey Old Goat something I always wondered is why a surgeon scrubs his hands so diligently when he will then put on gloves ?

I used to BC ski with a retired chief of surgery who used to write his schedule out on a pack of Player's ( back then they all smoked ) and tack it over the tub ...died early-ish of cancer

[klauss]

[KQ]

New this Spring!

Attachment 325850

[rideit]

Ya know, they could put a small garbage can there.

[Danno]

I'm no expert; maybe there is better evidence for one statement than for the other, but it seems to me that there is absolutely nothing about this infection that we are certain of. In regards to this particular issue, one can test for the virus on various surfaces--like your groceries, but showing that that is an actual mode of transmission or that it is not is very difficult. Given the long incubation period and the number of potential sources of transmissions a victim might have during that time, how does one determine which interaction was the source. Was it the guy I passed on the street 5 feet away? The grocery cart? I think it's fair to say that the more disinfecting you do the more you lower the risk, but by how much?

That makes sense, and I get that it's uncertain. What bothers me is that doesn't change that we are generally told contradictory things; if we need to disinfect surfaces like mad, then why not our groceries and food? Telling people that they can't eat is not an option, obviously, and we want food businesses to stay in business, but I hate being told "oh, that sandwich from the sandwich shop is fine" while at the same time being told to disinfect my shopping cart before touching it.

The thing that bugs me are gloves. Non-sterile gloves are no safer than your hands, unless you just wiped your nose on the back of your hand and then put the gloves on. I would much rather see the grocery checker or the person at the carry out restaurant wash or disinfect their ungloved hands between each customer and over and over during the day. The gloves give a false sense of security and are a poor substitute for washing or disinfecting. When non sterile gloves are used in a health are setting they are removed between each patient but that's not what's happening in stores and carry-outs.

I use gloves not as a way of having my hands be safer, but as a way of having a pealable layer of skin, so to speak. So I wear the gloves into a store, and when I get out of the store, I carefully take them off and onto the floor of my car, and my hands are "clean".

I reuse the gloves after they sit for a few days, FWIW, and I sure as fuck don;t toss them on the ground.

[riser4]

That makes sense, and I get that it's uncertain. What bothers me is that doesn't change that we are generally told contradictory things; if we need to disinfect surfaces like mad, then why not our groceries and food? Telling people that they can't eat is not an option, obviously, and we want food businesses to stay in business, but I hate being told "oh, that sandwich from the sandwich shop is fine" while at the same time being told to disinfect my shopping cart before touching it.



I use gloves not as a way of having my hands be safer, but as a way of having a pealable layer of skin, so to speak. So I wear the gloves into a store, and when I get out of the store, I carefully take them off and onto the floor of my car, and my hands are "clean".

I reuse the gloves after they sit for a few days, FWIW, and I sure as fuck don;t toss them on the ground.

Why do you hate 'Murica?

[riser4]

Fake news: https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/19/enter...rnd/index.html

[Ted Striker]

One of the important features of masks is that they help keep your sinuses from drying out, which would make you more susceptible to all kinds of crap. Drying out is why airplanes have some of the cleanest air (exchanged 20-30 times per hour according to Alaska, plus HEPA filters) and yet air travel seems to spread disease anyway (minimal humidity in planes). Wearing anything over your mouth and nose helps with that. AC vents have a similar effect...

Don't get on an airplane unless you absolutely have to. Those filters are only filtering recirculated air.

[powdork]

I do get that mouth cover prevents spread of droplets, but as far as your point that masks can help protect the wearer of the mask, isn't that point kind of offset if the person doesn't have eye pro?

short answer, no. it may still leave they's as a point of transmission but that does nothing to offset the benefits of covering your mouth.

[Jax]

91011

Sorry man, to you and others, haven't been here in a few years as I recovered from something completely different while simultaneously changing my path forward in life. I still wouldn't head into polyass. To me, the photo represented the worst of humanity in relation to this virus. The struggle to defeat it comes from all aspects as others have stated, and the political hue to this is no different. With a thread over 500 pages long (nice work Tom), you have to expect just a little scope creep. But I do understand what you're saying and where you are coming from. Hope you're well, seems like it. Cheers.

And Danno and others, I agree with regards to the food. I am not doing take-out, as much as I'd like to support the restaurants around here that are still open. I'm trying to keep the risk of transmission as low as possible. There is still so much we don't know.

[summit]

Don't get on an airplane unless you absolutely have to. Those filters are only filtering recirculated air.

Why would you HEPA filter fresh air? Recirc through a HEPA makes perfect sense.

[jono]

Don't get on an airplane unless you absolutely have to. Those filters are only filtering recirculated air.

Not that I disagree at all about getting on planes, but it seems pretty reasonable that the filters only filter recirculated air: why would you worry about filtering incoming air?

[glademaster]

Because "fresh air" hasn't really been fresh since before the industrial revolution got rolling?

[Name Redacted]

I usually stockpile my gloves in a trash bag and dump it in a nice mountain stream near my house once a week.

[jono]

Because "fresh air" hasn't really been fresh since before the industrial revolution got rolling?

Nevertheless, if you have two separable air mixtures the efficient way to filter is to focus on the inside air.

[bodywhomper]

as always, i apologize if the answer to my question has already been posted on this thread.

Is there a reasonable breakdown of the daily wire's subversive strategies related to all of its COVID19 articles? Their posts are always very editorial in tone, which is easy to see, but one has to dive-in to see the origins of the intentional misinformation the site is spreading. i'm hoping there's a summary-level critical analysis of what the daily wire is doing and why they are doing it. i have many friends that are small biz owners that are getting desperate and keep falling into the traps set by ben shapiro and his minions. they are (hopefully) unintentionally adding to the echo chamber on social media. rather than working to debunk every daily wire article, i think that many of these friends would read and understand a critical explanation of the daily wire's current MO related to covid19 and they would stop re-posting and believing the half-cocked and intentionally misinformed "articles." some of them would even divert their time to informing others about the subversive and decisive intent of the organization.

thanks

[glademaster]

Nevertheless, if you have two separable air mixtures the efficient way to filter is to focus on the inside air.

True.

[MultiVerse]

as always, i apologize if the answer to my question has already been posted on this thread.

Is there a reasonable breakdown of the daily wire's subversive strategies related to all of its COVID19 articles? Their posts are always very editorial in tone, which is easy to see, but one has to dive-in to see the origins of the intentional misinformation the site is spreading. i'm hoping there's a summary-level critical analysis of what the daily wire is doing and why they are doing it. i have many friends that are small biz owners that are getting desperate and keep falling into the traps set by ben shapiro and his minions. they are (hopefully) unintentionally adding to the echo chamber on social media. rather than working to debunk every daily wire article, i think that many of these friends would read and understand a critical explanation of the daily wire's current MO related to covid19 and they would stop re-posting and believing the half-cocked and intentionally misinformed "articles." some of them would even divert their time to informing others about the subversive and decisive intent of the organization.

thanks

Snopes and others try but it's an ocean of click bait.

The incentives are all wrong. Too much money in viral content, not enough in debunking. There's a lot of online referral link and advertising revenue generated. Decontextualize and cherry-pick a snippet from a study, few people read the study itself, and a viral story generates a small windfall.