ON3P SKIS Discussion

[dschane]

Is ON3P ever going to experiment with 5 dimensional skis/ fat skis with a small turning radius?
I love my old wrens, and was considering ON3P for my fat touring ski, but every larger ski has a 24m+ radius at >184cm size, and I was looking for 18m-ish

I am curious about that. I am not a fan of short radius skis, esp. in powder, crud, or sticky mash potatoes. And with tip rockered skis, 25-35 radius seem plenty turny.

[adrenalated]

Iggy and Powtron,

Is ON3P ever going to experiment with 5 dimensional skis/ fat skis with a small turning radius?
I love my old wrens, and was considering ON3P for my fat touring ski, but every larger ski has a 24m+ radius at >184cm size, and I was looking for 18m-ish

There are dozens of companies making 5 point skis with that kind of turn radius. Why do you think ON3P needs to make one/what do you think an ON3P version would do that those dozens of other skis don't?

I for one am glad they make long radius skis, I've hated everything I've ever skied with less than a 22m turn radius.

[skibum93]

There are dozens of companies making 5 point skis with that kind of turn radius. Why do you think ON3P needs to make one/what do you think an ON3P version would do that those dozens of other skis don't?

I for one am glad they make long radius skis, I've hated everything I've ever skied with less than a 22m turn radius.

From my perspective, ON3P builds stable, lively poppy skis that are durable af.So if anyone was going to crate a 5 dimensional ski, I'd want it to be them.
That being said, I know that niche of the market is saturated (I ended up picking up Fat-ypus D-Riddums Athlete Flex).

I'm overall curious if the decision of strictly longer radius skis is from an engineering (wouldn't ski well) or business perspective (probably both though).

[ScrewYou]

All im saying is, Id buy a pair of 194-196 Billy goats every season. I understand its not a big seller, but im still going to try! Its only because I love on3p skis.

The 191 is soo damn easy to ski, it is as good in moguls as my old 189 K2 obsetheds. A 196 would be perfect for 220lbs on steep, open faces.

[adrenalated]

From my perspective, ON3P builds stable, lively poppy skis that are durable af.So if anyone was going to crate a 5 dimensional ski, I'd want it to be them.
That being said, I know that niche of the market is saturated (I ended up picking up Fat-ypus D-Riddums Athlete Flex).

I'm overall curious if the decision of strictly longer radius skis is from an engineering (wouldn't ski well) or business perspective (probably both though).

ON3P can tell me if I'm way off base or not, but from my perspective.

The Billy Goat (and C&D and Steeple 108 and 116) basically ARE 5-point skis. They're tapered in the tip and tail with tip and tail rocker. ON3P's shaping is smoother than many "5-point" skis and thus is doesn't really make sense to call out all 5 dimensions. But the overall 5-point shape is there and the BG does compete directly with popular 5-point skis like the Armada JJ, Rossi S7, Praxis GPO, etc. etc.

A tight turn radius is to make the ski easy to turn and quick turning, right? The downside is that a tight turn radius can feel hooky in funky snow and feels less stable at speed and in longer turns. The beauty of RES is that you get all the benefits of a tight turn radius ski (easy to turn, quick in tight spaces) without any of the downsides. So an RES ski doesn't need a tight turn radius like most 5-point skis. It's better at speed and better in long t urns, never hooks, yet is still insanely easy at low speeds and extremely quick in tight spaces.

I own both GPOs (24m) and 12/13 BGs (28m) and the BG is every bit as quick as the GPO. Maybe even quicker. But the BG is also more stable and hooks less. The only thing the GPO is better at is being lighter and carving on hard snow. The first thing is being addressed with the prototype bamboo/paulownia layup and the second has already been addressed through sidecut tweaks. I've also skied S7s, JJs, Amperages, and many others and the BG doesn't lose much in ease and quickness to any of them.

tl:dr RES means a tight turn radius is not necessary.

[Kopi_Red]

All im saying is, Id buy a pair of 194-196 Billy goats every season. I understand its not a big seller, but im still going to try! Its only because I love on3p skis.

The 191 is soo damn easy to ski, it is as good in moguls as my old 189 K2 obsetheds. A 196 would be perfect for 220lbs on steep, open faces.

Please just stop. We've all heard your opinion on this matter. Just buck up and buy a pair of 196 Bodacious.

[tuco]

There are dozens of companies making 5 point skis with that kind of turn radius. Why do you think ON3P needs to make one/what do you think an ON3P version would do that those dozens of other skis don't?

I for one am glad they make long radius skis, I've hated everything I've ever skied with less than a 22m turn radius.

You the question police?

As far a long radius skis go. A ski that has a big tip or the widest part in the front is 9"-12" back from the tip, lots of sidecut to underfoot and then a pintail to achieve that large radius is far different ride than a ski that just plain has a straighter sidecut to achieve that radius. Just looking at the turn radius # can be misleading. I'm personally not a fan of the pintail as the ride can be unpredictable in weird snow and IMO makes for a more unnatural forward pressured stance. I want to just ski, not concentrate on overly pressuring my tips. My current favorite ride has a 32.5 radius, wide part in front right at the turn of the tips and a nice long straight forebody, 146-125-135. $$$

[tuco]

All im saying is, Id buy a pair of 194-196 Billy goats every season. I understand its not a big seller, but im still going to try! Its only because I love on3p skis.

The 191 is soo damn easy to ski, it is as good in moguls as my old 189 K2 obsetheds. A 196 would be perfect for 220lbs on steep, open faces.

You do realize that 191 you have or had, measured against basically every other manufacturer, is a 194-196?

[TahoeJ]

I've always considered the BG to be a 5 point ski. And 193 BG sounds pretty burly to me, I'm not sure why 1 or 2cm more would matter.

[tuco]

You the question police?

As far a long radius skis go. A ski that has a big tip or the widest part in the front is 9"-12" back from the tip, lots of sidecut to underfoot and then a pintail to achieve that large radius is far different ride than a ski that just plain has a straighter sidecut to achieve that radius. Just looking at the turn radius # can be misleading. I'm personally not a fan of the pintail as the ride can be unpredictable in weird snow and IMO makes for a more unnatural forward pressured stance. I want to just ski, not concentrate on overly pressuring my tips. My current favorite ride has a 32.5 radius, wide part in front right at the turn of the tips and a nice long straight forebody, 146-125-135. $$$

^^on that note, the new C&D looks pretty fuckin' money to me too. Anybody been on them(or any Utarded demos)? 191 Kartel 116 looks fuckin' killer too.

[Sessiøn]

I'm not sure why 1 or 2cm more would matter.

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TGR

[whyturn]

Radius is irrelevant in powder. I only ski powder. Reverse camber and res make my life easier and quicker than any radius ever will. Ski with me on my BG and spur and I can toast u in the trees but still rip open faces.
Real skis for real skiers. Now I did buy easy skis with 20m radius for lessons and lazy days. But it's fun to have choices. Boutique ski makers have limited models and it really is not hard to learn how to ski the billy goat.

Praxis did start offering mods on orders like 10mm wider etc for a price. If you want custom they will make it but you pay. I've heard same from On3p

[Ottime]

Please just stop. We've all heard your opinion on this matter. Just buck up and buy a pair of 196 Bodacious.

Love my 196 Bod.

A little too easy to ski. [insert finger stash]

[mattig]

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QFT

[theetruscan]

The 98 is easier to ski but has a lower speed limit. The 108 is more stable but requires more effort. I'd make the call based on that more than on waist width.

Thank you, this is super helpful. I am a little worried I'm too hardcore for the 189 wren though, can it be made in a 189.9?

[undertow2]

I own both GPOs (24m) and 12/13 BGs (28m) and the BG is every bit as quick as the GPO. Maybe even quicker. But the BG is also more stable and hooks less. The only thing the GPO is better at is being lighter and carving on hard snow. The first thing is being addressed with the prototype bamboo/paulownia layup and the second has already been addressed through sidecut tweaks. I've also skied S7s, JJs, Amperages, and many others and the BG doesn't lose much in ease and quickness to any of them.

tl:dr RES means a tight turn radius is not necessary.

I own both the 191 Billy and 192 GPO and no doubt the Blly is the king of skiing soft snow... However, for me the GPO has always been faster edge to edge and a better tree ski... The Billy does well, but the GPO is just easier in tight spaces... I know why and how RES is a benefit for POW, but don't know why it would make any difference in trees/tight spaces...

Now the GPO was tops for me in tight trees until I bought the 191 116 Kartel... Holy shit is it a dream tree ski... So easy, quick undesfoot and a breeze to throw sideways to check speed in the trees...

[SupreChicken]

I own both the 191 Billy and 192 GPO and no doubt the Blly is the king of skiing soft snow... However, for me the GPO has always been faster edge to edge and a better tree ski... The Billy does well, but the GPO is just easier in tight spaces... I know why and how RES is a benefit for POW, but don't know why it would make any difference in trees/tight spaces...

Now the GPO was tops for me in tight trees until I bought the 191 116 Kartel... Holy shit is it a dream tree ski... So easy, quick undesfoot and a breeze to throw sideways to check speed in the trees...

So a couple things.

1) I also have owned both. Agree the GPO is quicker edge to edge for me and easier to throw around in tight trees. Once I'm in pow though, I'd rather be on the BG.

So tight spaces + pow - BG
Tight spaces + firm or variable - GPO

Open spaces + variable - BG.

Not to say the GPO sucks in these conditions - it doesn't, but the BG is the dominant ski for plowing through weird snow at high speeds, IMO.

2) undertow. You're telling me that the tight space ability spectrum is:

Kartel > GPO > BG???

Sigh. Prob gonna spend some money.

[TahoeJ]

Man, all of this Kartel hype definitely makes me want to give them a whirl sometime. When I had the Jeffrey 110's I really liked them when the snow was consistent but when it was more unpredictable I always found myself in the backseat in an attempt to not drive the tips too much (as is my preference). Not blaming the skis but my style / preference. Is the Kartel distinctly different nowadays or am I likely to encounter the same problem due to the more centered mounting point?

[undertow2]

So a couple things.

1) I also have owned both. Agree the GPO is quicker edge to edge for me and easier to throw around in tight trees. Once I'm in pow though, I'd rather be on the BG.

So tight spaces + pow - BG
Tight spaces + firm or variable - GPO

Open spaces + variable - BG.

Not to say the GPO sucks in these conditions - it doesn't, but the BG is the dominant ski for plowing through weird snow at high speeds, IMO.

2) undertow. You're telling me that the tight space ability spectrum is:

Kartel > GPO > BG???

Sigh. Prob gonna spend some money.

Spot on SC... The Billy is just so hard to beat in both POW and junked up snow - it is just so loose and surfy, but at the same time the ski also gets after it... I am sure the newer 189 is a great ski, but no way would I part with my 191 Billys...

And regarding the 116 Kartels... I also bought 194 Qs this year and have yet to ski them or my Billys... I absolutely love the Kartels... They make skiing POW so fun and make fun terrain even "funner"...! I absolutely love this ski and they are an absolute breeze to ski in the trees... If there is 3+ inches of snow the Kartels come out...

To me it is likely the Billygoat and the Blizzard Gunsmoke had sex and their love child is the 116 Kartel...

[mattig]

I've seen k116/Jeffrey put in the same category as Gunsmokes but have only been on the latter. Anyone owned both and can offer quick compare/contrast? Living in pdx, I'd rather be an ON3P owner

[greasyslope]

Undertow, Phiber, etc., how does the Kartel do in wind affected snow -stuff that's a bit funky and not consistent hero pow? I really like the BG in that stuff.

Fortunately/unfortunately the local demo day corresponded with the arrival of 4' of snow plus massive crowds, so I skipped demoing them. I figured they would probably stand in line great!

[undertow2]

Man, all of this Kartel hype definitely makes me want to give them a whirl sometime. When I had the Jeffrey 110's I really liked them when the snow was consistent but when it was more unpredictable I always found myself in the backseat in an attempt to not drive the tips too much (as is my preference). Not blaming the skis but my style / preference. Is the Kartel distinctly different nowadays or am I likely to encounter the same problem due to the more centered mounting point?

Tahoe, I ski raced for a long time and love/loved skis like Dynastar LPs, Katanas, Wrens and Dynastar XXLs (i.e. - traditional mounts)... There are new age skis that I liked a lot, but once I got them in POW I had to get in the backseat to keep from going over the handle bars... I also own the 193 Gunsmoke and love the ski but if I am getting after it in the POW there are moments I felt like I had to dial it back a bit because of the over the handle bars feeling... Even with the Kartels having a more aggressive mount I have never gone over the handle bars or had to back seat it... You def can't drive them like a traditional ski, but if you ski them centered/slight pressure on the tongue game on and do they come alive... I also believe that the Kartels tails were given more of a pintail (you can def see the diff in tip/tail in my pic above) where the Jeffrey line tips and tails were more symmetrical... This is the same with the Gunsmokes and no doubt what I was feeling with them at times was the same feeling you were getting from the Jeffrey's... The Kartels just Fing rip in POW/any soft snow...

I went back and forth with PowTron on the mount point because of how aggressive it is and he told me dead center... He was spot on and no way would I change it... With that said I hope Iggy and PowTron weigh in as I know they could provide a more detailed/technical response than I can give...

Mattig, I own and love my 193 Gunsmoke, but the only area that it beats the Kartel is on soft groomers and not by much... Everywhere else the Kartel is a better ski and just has that solid ON3P feel...

[mattig]

Thanks Undertow. Your past comments on the 193 gunsmokes (came up in a search) were helpful. I've only had them 2 days, and have been impressed. Glad to hear you like the k116's better.

[undertow2]

Thanks Undertow. Your past comments on the 193 gunsmokes (came up in a search) were helpful. I've only had them 2 days, and have been impressed. Glad to hear you like the k116's better.

Mattig, you will love them and they are fun as hell... I never even considered them, but when I did Gorys camp Ben Wheeler was rocking the 193s and he absolutely loved them... And the way he skis and what he put them through when we were with him I was def impressed...

Thanks to Banditmans PSA I got my 193s (same year as yours) for $200 shipped from STP... Except for the soft as shit bases you will def dig them...

Since I liked the Guns so much I knew I would totally dig the Kartels...

I will be at Bach from 3/29th to 4/8th skiing so if you come up I will have my Kartels and you can def take them out if we can make the BSL work...

[SupreChicken]

Undertow, Phiber, etc., how does the Kartel do in wind affected snow -stuff that's a bit funky and not consistent hero pow? I really like the BG in that stuff.

!

Me too. What say the Kartel owners?