Lake Tahoe 2015/16 - Year of Godzilla Baby Jesus

[TahoeJ]

That sounds pretty sweet. Much as I like to earn my descent, with a head-start like that you could put in a nice big loop without it taking 4-5 hours.

[powdrhound]

This sucks. On my way to Alpine, and my engine dies, fuel pump?
Sitting on the side of 89, waiting for a tow. Damn.

[LightRanger]

On Kirkwood skinning...

Here's their SUP:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6...jRjMWRTeVB5ZlE
(See the last sentence in Paragraph I.E. at the top of the second page)

Here's one of their recent ops plans:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6...3hwTmtwUE5aZW8
(Uphill Policy on page 12)

Here's the Forest Service Manual:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6...mtrUXZHcHRYTWs
(See pages 24-25)

Here's a map that shows FS land and private land:
http://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=38.68...15&b=ter&a=sma

Travel on private land--including parking--is obviously at the landowner's discretion. If they tell you not to travel there and you refuse, you can be cited by the El Dorado County Sheriff for trespassing.

Excluding the public from travel on legally-accessed Forest Service land, post-season when there are no legitimate operations issues, though, is bullshit.

As powdork suggests, contacting the Forest Supervisor is a fantastic idea. There are other folks listed in the Kirkwood Winter Ops plan too.

As previously discussed upthread a few months ago, I'd like to push this issue with KW and other ski area operators on FS land (cough, Alpine, cough). I only got a response to my FOIA request last month (and it's a still-incomplete response, at that), and then haven't had time to address it since then. The FOIA response didn't include as many public access complaints as I had assumed it would. It's possible that there simply haven't been that many, but I suspect it was more that they're hard to corral from peoples' email boxes in a FOIA response. If you've previously complained to the FS in writing about this issue, I'd be curious when, to whom, and how. Because there were very few public complaints in the FOIA response. There were some emails related to travel within the permit area at China Peak, and then some stuff from Snowlands related to continued free public access along the PCT through Sugar Bowl's permit area (which was a mitigation requirement for the Judah expansion in the late 90s). But that's about it.

If anybody has anything to add or questions or anything, feel free to PM me or whatever.

[mcski]

This sucks. On my way to Alpine, and my engine dies, fuel pump?
Sitting on the side of 89, waiting for a tow. Damn.

Aren't they only doing weekend operations now? Maybe that kicks in next week?

[powdork]

Thanks LightRanger
From the forest service manual listed above (bold color added by me)
6. Ensure that holder operations comply with Forest Service regulations (36 CFR
251.55(b)) and permit terms and conditions for non-exclusive use and that the ski area
remains open to the non-paying public for all lawful uses that are not inconsistent with
the holder’s rights and privileges and public safety. Document in the operating plan
authorized restrictions on use by the non-paying public, and require the holder to post
these restrictions in locations where they would be effective in informing the public, for
example, on the ski area’s website and on site at a primary entrance or public information
facility. In most cases, it would not be appropriate for restrictions to preclude all public
use during the ski season other than by those purchasing a lift ticket or paying for other
services.

Since almost all resorts have some level of avalanche threat I would have to assume that Kirkwood can't use the threat of avalanches to preclude all public use all the time, which is what they have done.

[powdrhound]

Aren't they only doing weekend operations now? Maybe that kicks in next week?

Phone report says 7 chairs running today at Alpine.

[LightRanger]

Thanks LightRanger
From the forest service manual listed above (bold color added by me)
6. Ensure that holder operations comply with Forest Service regulations (36 CFR
251.55(b)) and permit terms and conditions for non-exclusive use and that the ski area
remains open to the non-paying public for all lawful uses that are not inconsistent with
the holder’s rights and privileges and public safety. Document in the operating plan
authorized restrictions on use by the non-paying public, and require the holder to post
these restrictions in locations where they would be effective in informing the public, for
example, on the ski area’s website and on site at a primary entrance or public information
facility. In most cases, it would not be appropriate for restrictions to preclude all public
use during the ski season other than by those purchasing a lift ticket or paying for other
services.

Since almost all resorts have some level of avalanche threat I would have to assume that Kirkwood can't use the threat of avalanches to preclude all public use all the time, which is what they have done.

Yep. The language is pretty friendly to public access during the season as well. So it seems to me that pre- and especially post-season would have an even stronger access argument based on the Forest Service's own language (and simple logic).

Though the FS cannot control private land and Kirkwood's parking is on private land. Based on the Caltopo data, at least. There's the rub. Likewise at Sugar Bowl, they can tell people not to park in the Judah lot, but they cannot prevent people from skinning from Sugar Bowl Academy (Old ASI Hut) area because that access point is on FS land.

Alpine Meadows, on the other hand, has all of its parking and base lodge area on FS land, so you could arguably park in their lot and skin to the top of Waterfall and KSL shouldn't be able to stop you. http://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=39.16...15&b=ter&a=sma

The avalanche issue is a bogus excuse, as we both know.

[TeleTahoe]

Yea alpine is turning mid week. This weekend could be the last, or they will keep summit spinning for the next couple of weekends.

[TahoeJ]

Alpine is still open every day.

Re: Kirkwood. Technically they're already in violation of some of their lease and operation terms. Fuck Vail and their security goons, someone should print out the docs with highlighted sections and wear a GoPro when confronted. Obviously there are other places to go right now, it's more about the principle and them acting like they own that land.

[gimpy]

Another late April powder day went off and cold temps and intermittent clouds kept it firing longer then usual for the now. South side of cp was firing and a good grip of folks out there making the most of it. Both arms of crescent now sufficiently groomed. My first line required thigh deep booting first 50'
Some sled skiers went deep behind emigrant. It looked like they came from kirkwood

[Ottime]

^^^likely KW team riders. Based on last time I know of that there was illegal sledding going on... Gotta make those videos somehow. At least they aren't holding a lift in manpower day to get the footage this time.

My issue with the KW policy is personal. I can use my friends home in the valley whe it is vacant. If I'm up there with my family, I can do a quick two laps after breakfast, and be back in time to cook lunch and go for an afternoon hike. Can't quite pull that off anywhere else come May. The fact that I need to be all stealthy just blows, and uses up time.

What I don't understand is why KW has gone down hill with Vail, while the Heave improves. It is not just infrastructure, but policies like these.

Powdrhound - that sucks. My Subie completely died last Monday, but at least I was close to home when it happened. Big financial loss, but now it is time to move on.

[gimpy]

I was guessing they were trollers riding official kwood sleds. The tracks being laid down didn't have the look of the team crew. Hippy turnin

If your not parking in their lot I don't see how they can mess with u. As long as your car isn't in danger of being towed you should give them a healthy dose of go fuck yourself. I'd bet that they will stop being so on it after they've been closed for a bit

[TahoeBC]

Had some sledders roll up on us at the top of far corner, doing shuttles from emigrant lake one day when the BC gate was closed I'm guessing as no one else was skiing west shore that day and it was untracked. Talked for a bit with them down at the lake after our run. They said it's tough sledding but they have gone up the north facing side of summit city starting from the forestdale/blue lakes area via that canyon on a few occasions

[powdork]

i could be wrong but i think parking in their lot is totally fine as well. there has to be signage for them to tow you. of course it makes it really easy for them to catch you and regardless of rather it's right or wrong (it's wrong) you can be cited for trespassing.
also it's really common, easy, and legal (i think) to sled back to the radio tower from the silver lake area

[Ottime]

Silver to radio is legal for sure. I don't think they can legally cross into the emigrant basin tho. At least that is what I was told by a slender who was having a snack at the radio tower.

Gimpy, I think that will be my plan. Have my wife drop me off with boots and skins at TC. Climb from there, ski Montes to the Drain, hike up to buckboard and up 10. Have some one tell at me we. I get to the bottom.

[Dhelihiker]

You can sled to backside totally legally its about 15 miles of ridges, its a really fun ride and there is some sick sled ski terrain out there too. You start at and go then you and then you and bam your there.

[TahoeJ]

i could be wrong but i think parking in their lot is totally fine as well. there has to be signage for them to tow you. of course it makes it really easy for them to catch you and regardless of rather it's right or wrong (it's wrong) you can be cited for trespassing.

The only real claim with the parking lot is if they've plowed it. But the USFS docs are vague and don't put a specific timeline on it (what if it was last plowed a week ago or a month ago?). More importantly, and where KW is in violation, is a clear and specific posted sign with access details. They can't just put up a "No trespassing" sign.

[gimpy]

Leaving a car behind can be troubling if you blow them off. If they hassle you afterwards, what are u gonna do? Wait around for the sheriff to show u to get cited?
That makes more sense they came from silver given the kwood parking scene. My favorite part of sled skiing is parking the fucking thing

[skier666]

Mid-winter I have definitely ran into slednecks at the top of the Radio Tower on Melissa Coray and atop Thunder Mountain. Isn't it Mokelumne Wilderness in West Shore all the way to Carson Pass and behind in Summit City?

[LightRanger]

Mid-winter I have definitely ran into slednecks at the top of the Radio Tower on Melissa Coray and atop Thunder Mountain. Isn't it Mokelumne Wilderness in West Shore all the way to Carson Pass and behind in Summit City?

Radio tower is just outside the boundary. Pretty sure, at least. The map here isn't the best, but seems like that boundary was engineered so that the tower is just outside of it. (Wonder if the tower was there in 1964?)
http://www.wilderness.net/map.cfm?xm...ax=4679144.676

There's an official sled closure associated with Kirkwood's SUP too, but can't find a map of it offhand and that may change (and arguably should change) when the resort closes for the season. Thunder Mountain may (probably is?) within the SUP area, so they may not have been allowed to be there--but for reasons other than wilderness. Here's a comment from KW on sleds: https://cara.ecosystem-management.or...FSPLT3_2460975

[powdork]

this is just behind 10

[powdork]

and i think this belongs here

[skier666]

Current Kirkwood webcam...

[Nevada29er]

Alpine Meadows, on the other hand, has all of its parking and base lodge area on FS land, so you could arguably park in their lot and skin to the top of Waterfall and KSL shouldn't be able to stop you. http://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=39.16...15&b=ter&a=sma

Alpine has been restricting access post season as well from their parking lot. Last year they had concrete barriers up with posted No Trespassing signs. I parked at the barricade and proceeded to go up anyways. Ran into another skier who told me if any employees give me shit, to mention the name of some USFS guy. No one ended up hassling me, but the guy I talked to had been before.

[powdork]

Aspen highlands reopening again this weekend. Why? Because they have snow that's fucking why.