I am bored it is cold as hell, let us discuss this Snow Pack scenario

[homemadesalsa]

I thought we weren't going to have Rog dick up thread in the Slide zone. Eh?

Back to our regularly scheduled programming:
With the current spate of cold cold cold, I betcha Bunion's entire snowpack is starting to facet. Main worry will be big new load with warm and wind. Ka-Boom.

[icelanticskier]

I thought we weren't going to have Rog dick up thread in the Slide zone. Eh?

Back to our regularly scheduled programming:
With the current spate of cold cold cold, I betcha Bunion's entire snowpack is starting to facet. Main worry will be big new load with warm and wind. Ka-Boom.

Wait what?

I wasn't the one name calling, missy. I gave some input. Haters name called and I called back. Who's dick waving?

Enlighten me honey:rolls eyes:

Rog

[icelanticskier]

Ok!
And while smoke is pouring out of my ears, tell us more about the '72 hour safety' rule regarding this season's snowpack!

Well while I certainly won't be quoting someone else...........

I was referring to the handling of the current pack as it sits. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that a majority of what's down may be like a ticking time bomb with drastic temp changes, wind, new snow load. The 72 hour rule means to hope what's there settles a bit to be so what useful for somewhat safely getting around till shit does in fact change or shit hits the fan. Rain to ridges with deep freeze would be best as I stated.

So what's yer problem?

Rog

[lynchdogger]

Correct. Rog is a bloviating idiot.

Yup.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using TGR Forums

[icelanticskier]

^^^^^^^oh geeze. Shit show boy chimes in

Rog

[TBS]

I thought we weren't going to have Rog dick up thread in the Slide zone. Eh?

Back to our regularly scheduled programming:
With the current spate of cold cold cold, I betcha Bunion's entire snowpack is starting to facet. Main worry will be big new load with warm and wind. Ka-Boom.

Was kinda thinking the same thing, but I'm a maritime guy who doesn't spend much time in -20 temps...

Questions for you Continentals...
Will snow crystals bond at all when temps are that cold, even if the temp gradient is relatively stable?

In these high gradient situations, do the crystals tend to be bigger at the surface relative to ground, or the other way around?

And Salsa, I saw what you did there with the comment about Rog

[rideit]

I only wait 71 hours.

[NoPostholio]

I am not sure you all are aware, but rawj rides in some of the raddest avy terrain on EC. All 5 square miles of it. All the time. Please show that the respect it deserves....

[homemadesalsa]

Was kinda thinking the same thing, but I'm a maritime guy who doesn't spend much time in -20 temps...

Questions for you Continentals...
Will snow crystals bond at all when temps are that cold, even if the temp gradient is relatively stable?

I can answer that one. Nope. Faceting must happen- how could the tg be stable with shallow snowpack?

In these high gradient situations, do the crystals tend to be bigger at the surface relative to ground, or the other way around?

The facets at the ground will probably progress to depth hoar (6mm or larger), while the nsf at the surface (duh) will remain small as the gradient goes back and forth, moving the same bits of vapor-deposition from top to bottom, bottom to top. Then in some places there may be surface hoar as well- a fine cocktail. Bigger facets around the pre-existing crusts.

No need for us to be rude to one another.



And Salsa, I saw what you did there with the comment about Rog

Hmm for some reason the forum doesn't recognize all my typing up above. Shaping up to be a deep slab year- time to scale back the wanting til there is a good two meters on top, or the PCTs show up with nothing.

[NoPostholio]

I am not sure you all are aware, but rawj rides in some of the raddest avy terrain on EC. All 5 square miles of it. All the time. Please show that the respect it deserves....

Sarcasm aside, and hoping this thread can stay alive for educational purposes -

Rog, all kidding aside - there are some smart peeps on here that throw around some great food for thought. You killed like 20 threads in this forum over the last couple seasons with mostly nonsense. Let people that do this for a living in some scary ass snowpacks do some talking. I for one want to listen. Or you could nuke this thread too -

[icelanticskier]

it's a fowum that we all can add our .02 to. we are all different with different perspectives on the matter.

how do you see my thinking of needing a hudge dump or rains to ridges to help partially cure the fucked as bad .02?

you are all so easy to hate on rog with no explanation but name calling. ya, pro, man.

rog

[neck beard]

it's a fowum that we all can add our .02 to. we are all different with different perspectives on the matter.

See, that could have been said directly at you "1000 times" in the past.

Mostly, the world we experience is a reflection of our own projection into the world. Yer reapin' what yer sowed.

/irrespective of whether your opinion is technically correct or valid or not.

[lynchdogger]

See, that could have been said directly at you "1000 times" in the past.

Mostly, the world we experience is a reflection of our own projection into the world. Yer reapin' what yer sowed.

/irrespective of whether your opinion is technically correct or valid or not.

Bingo. GTFO Rog. Poser.

We all know by now your .02 isn't worth shit.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using TGR Forums

[neck beard]

That is not quite what I said.

[icelanticskier]

Bingo. GTFO Rog. Poser.

We all know by now your .02 isn't worth shit.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using TGR Forums

put the beer down, mark. you can come with us on sunday so long as you aren't LATE, again

rog

[neck beard]

relatively warm snow pack that contained quite a bit of H2o vapor and a lot of latent heat/energy being suddenly blanketed by 12-18" of snow and then subjected to what looks to be a week of extremely cold temps.

That thought entered my head when I read your OP.

Reminds me of when people are perhaps mistakenly happy when a thick surface crust gets buried by a storm which starts out as rain, then turns cold. It might be right side up and warm and sticky with the crust in the short term, but the crust has been warmed to near freezing level (0C) by the rain = steeper TG from the crust through the new overlaying storm snow to the air = faster faceting at the crust after the storm passes.

[neufox47]

I am not sure you all are aware, but rawj rides in some of the raddest avy terrain on EC. All 5 square miles of it. All the time. Please show that the respect it deserves....

Not true, the raddest avy terrain in the EC is at Baxter...

No one wants to answer my question? Liquid water/moisture in the snowpack will result in super fast faceting in cold weather right?

[icelanticskier]

hey rob, wanna go touring with me and lynchy on sunday?

rog

[neck beard]

No one wants to answer my question?

I basically answered it in the post directly above yours.

[homemadesalsa]

Absolutely yes. It is called melt layer recrystallization, and is one of the three causes of near-surface faceting. Extent of faceting is determined by amount of free water, temp gradient between crust and air, and thickness of layer over crust.

Sent from my Milestone X2 using TGR Forums

[TBS]

Thanks for the answers Salsa. Makes sense.

Re the stable temp gradient, I was kind of abstracting really cold surface temps with a deep pack. Like Bunion, we have a shallow (4' ) pack and last night it was -10f (relatively balmy in No Rockies, but still a big gradient). I need to dig a pit and get up close & personal with facets tomorrow...not something we see a lot of

Will be getting "interesting" soon. Ten day forecast here calls for 20f temp increase over just a couple of days, and lots of snow

Good thread - thanks to all who bring the wisdom

[klar]

Liquid water/moisture in the snowpack will result in super fast faceting in cold weather right?

Liquid water is really only present in snow at 0°C, supercooled water would not survive very long within the snowpack when it's colder IMO. However, evaporation rates increase with higher temperature so there is more water vapour in warmer layers of the snow pack, which will travel along the temperature gradient and lead to faceting.

Absolutely yes. It is called melt layer recrystallization, and is one of the three causes of near-surface faceting. Extent of faceting is determined by amount of free water, temp gradient between crust and air, and thickness of layer over crust.

What is near-surface faceting? Wouldn't this apply throughout the entire snowpack?

Will snow crystals bond at all when temps are that cold, even if the temp gradient is relatively stable?

In these high gradient situations, do the crystals tend to be bigger at the surface relative to ground, or the other way around?

What is a stable gradient?

Facets grow from the bottom up because molecules move along the vapour pressure gradient (caused by the temp gradient) and sublimate at the bottom end of the upper crystals. Equilibirum vapour pressure is higher over strongly convex ice surfaces (like the spiky "arm" of a crystal ) so molecules tend to evaporate there and will in turn sublimate in concave areas, thereby slowly turning spiky crystal forms into facets.



This doesn't seem to be a thing in English but in German snow-speak we strongly differentiate between "crystal building" and "crystal breaking down" phases of snow metamorphosis. It seems obvious that the idea of a "72 hour rule" can only hold in the latter case, while stuff mostly just gets worse over time in the former.

[icelanticskier]

It seems obvious that the idea of a "72 hour rule" can only hold in the latter case, while stuff mostly just gets worse over time in the former.

which is why I mentioned it as a ski sooner (before new load/wind/temp change) than later scenario. plus I find it kinda cute.^^^^^^^nice "geeky" snow run down, btw. and to the others

rog

[TBS]

What is a stable gradient?

Facets grow from the bottom up because molecules move along the vapour pressure gradient (caused by the temp gradient) and sublimate at the bottom end of the upper crystals. Equilibirum vapour pressure is higher over strongly convex ice surfaces (like the spiky "arm" of a crystal ) so molecules tend to evaporate there and will in turn sublimate in concave areas, thereby slowly turning spiky crystal forms into facets.

By "stable gradient" i meant a snowpack with little temp change from ground to surface. Bad choice of terms.

It doesn't get very cold in the Pacific Northwest and the snowpacks get pretty deep, so there is little temp change across the pack and thus not much faceting. Our slides generally release on slick crusty layers formed during warm, wet spells.

We currently have a mild form of Bunion's conditions in the PNW - way different from the norm. These offbeat situations are good for thinking outside the normal box - esp since its gonna warm up a bunch over the next week.

[rideit]

Slight tangent here.
I have always heard the term isothermic to mean, essentially, above freezing all the way through.
Can snow be 'isothermic' at, say, 10 degrees all the way through the pack?
(I know it would have to be fairly shallow)