One year out of law school, not going as planned

[phishstx]

Sorry for the lengthy diary entry in advance, but some background seems helpful here.

I've participated in a few law school threads, but thought I'd start one in here to solicit ideas. Graduated last May from law school in NYC - not one of the T14 but not Brooklyn or Cardozo caliber, so you can probably narrow it down. Going in (straight from undergrad) I planned on killing it, doing the 2L summer associate thing, and then putting my time in at a large NYC firm, preferably in transactional work (M&A or restructuring). My luck ran out pretty much immediately, since my first semester was fall 2008. Firms culled associates and cut summer classes, and though I had on-campus interviews with good firms, I didn't score a summer associate gig and have been playing catch-up ever since. Since graduating with a 3.4 (didn't kill it as heavily as planned but it's right within the top 1/3 of my class) I've done volunteer work with a judge in NY Supreme downtown, which is about as far from transactional work as you can get.

I'm pretty much out of the hiring pool for law firms at this point and I'm casting a wide net (geographically and in terms of practice areas), but would appreciate any creative ideas for getting a foot in the door to gain transactional experience.

Other points:
-My networking among alumni (particularly undergrad) is pretty strong, and I walk a fine line between "following up" and being a pain in the ass, but haven't had many concrete developments. It's always "I'll pass your resume along to X" and then nothing materializes with X, or X passes it along to Y. I know that's how it works, and informational interviews are great and all, but it's been that way for over a year now.
-Been working on Excel/fin modeling skills to be more attractive to banks and other advisory firms that may not necessarily need a lawyer but might be able to use a junior associate of some kind to kick around. I'm fully prepared to be kicked around.
-I apply to government agencies, banks, corporations, small/mid-sized firms whenever I come across listing that is even somewhat promising.
-Awaiting NY bar results.

Suggestions? Thanks in advance.

[OSECS]

Dude, feel for you. Actually had this very conversation with a good friend last night. He's the recruiting partner for a pretty large Va. Law firm with offices all over the world. Told me about a kid he had lunch with in the top of his law class at Harvard, undergrad at Yale, and has a masters in business from some other ivy. My buddies firm hasn't got a spot for him any where.

He said 5-8 years ago they were hiring 40-50 new lawyers (fresh from law school or the bar exam) a year. it's 4-5 now. New hire budgets are slashed. Clients bristle at law firms billing them for new hire experience hours so the firms supposedly eat a lot of the billable hours for these new hires, trying to get them experience.

The buzzword for new hires and internships remains the same, ethnic diversity.

[rideit]

PM Rontele.

[Hutch]

Stressful. All I can think to suggest is that you keep widening your net, in terms of firm size, geography, practice areas, etc. You need a job, not a dream job. And stay off of ATL.

[phishstx]

Dude, feel for you. Actually had this very conversation with a good friend last night. He's the recruiting partner for a pretty large Va. Law firm with offices all over the world. Told me about a kid he had lunch with in the top of his law class at Harvard, undergrad at Yale, and has a masters in business from some other ivy. My buddies firm hasn't got a spot for him any where.

The buzzword for new hires and internships remains the same, ethnic diversity.

Yeah that's another thing, it doesn't help I'm competing with kids that have those credentials and a few years of junior associate experience even for contract jobs.

PM Rontele.

It's crossed my mind.

Stressful. All I can think to suggest is that you keep widening your net, in terms of firm size, geography, practice areas, etc. You need a job, not a dream job. And stay off of ATL.

Yeah it's obviously not the market to be picky at all, but at the same time I know for a fact I don't want to be doing criminal or personal injury, and law practice areas tend to be one of those things for which you quickly become pigeonholed. I apply for entry-level positions that don't even require JDs, but I'm sure they see that and figure I'll jump ship once something better comes along (which is probably a fair prediction).

[Art Shirk]

You have some pretty limited options as it is bone fucking dry out there. You are going to have to know someone AND fucking kill the interview. When I had my own solo practice, I had a young guy approach me and propose the following: he had some web SEO/marketing skills and a fresh JD. He was going to market my practice and I would basically let him work for me as a contractor (he had his own LLC entity) on the work he would bring in. I could oversee his work and there would be trickle down work for me. I would have some added clients and exposure and he could make a few duckets and have a guy an office away to bounce things off of. He was honest and said that he would be looking for a steady full-time gig in the meantime. I was happy the way I was so I didn't oblige, but it was creative and he was well-spoken. I passed his name off to everyone I knew who may need someone. So maybe convince so solo to take you on (give one of your wordpress guru friends some beer to make the guy's site).*

And call some head hunters.

* may be some PR problems with the scenario, I didn't full vet out how the relationship would work

[TahoeJ]

Just happened to read this article last night:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...110470,00.html

So as the article suggests, the cycle will eventually shift back in your favor. I know that doesn't help right now, but worth keeping in mind.

[stupendous man]

Not knowing anything else but what you wrote, I'd say get out of NYC. You're too little a fish in too big a pond. Look for work in other parts of the state, or get off of the right coast and look for jobs in places with less law schools dump trucking into the pond.

I don't know what those places are off the top of my head, so I'm not very helpful here. Perhaps Maine, VT, maybe even out west in WA, OR - there are firms hiring in CO but the talent pool I think is having the same issue as NYC.

[Moeghoul]

Hang in there and get the bar results back. Some firms don't want to bother until you passed it. If you're thinking about moving out of state and practicing law, be sure you pick a state you want to stay in for a while, unless there's some reciprocity, sitting for another bar exam is prolly the last thing you want to do. When I finished a 3 day, 2 bar exam marathon I swore to myself that was the last time I was ever gonna take an exam. Good luck and consider all options.

[bern43]

Sounds like you're already doing a lot of the things you should be. As others have said, it's just tough out there right now. I wouldn't get too worried though. It can feel like if you miss the "big firm" train that you need to catch up. But the funny thing is that often times you'll end up exactly where your former classmates who went to big firms are working after they've burned themselves out, at a smaller firm or working in the public sector.

The key (and this is easier said than done) is to just keep networking. Joining the local bar association can be a good way to meet some new people. Informational interviews are also good. I got my first job through an informational interview. Also, at least in Boston, there are several firms that are always hiring. There's a reason for that. They're terrible places to work in the long run. But attorneys who put in a year or two at those firms can usually trade up to a better position. There's probably similar firms in NY.

Good luck. And if you expand your search to Mass. and have any specific questions about firms, etc. I'd be happy to answer them.

Oh, and PM Rontele.

[Gman]

I had lunch with my old roommate who is in the exact same situation. Just graduated from Fordham and is doing contract work and can't find a job to save his life. Is living at home in NJ and commuting into the city because he can't afford rent and needs to pay off loans. It is a crappy time out there for lawyers, so you need to take every opportunity you get and network the hell out of stuff. Find that person with connections and work your ass off for them so they are actually invested in helping you out rather than just passing your resume along to someone.

[phishstx]

Thanks for all the responses, I was worried it could turn into an ATL "what were you thinking" type thread. I'm actually moving out of the city at the end of this month, can't afford my lease + loans either so I'll be back at my parents' in the Philly area and would like that to be as short of a stay as possible.

I get so pumped just to have informational interviews, and they usually go great (and often come with a free lunch). I had a partner at Debevoise sit with me for two hours and make calls on my behalf while I was there, so that's a lead I've been almost obsessive about following up on. I don't have a shot at Deb but the connections are there.

Bern, I stay on top of listings at Boston firms and the Fed branch there but that's one city where I don't have any personal leads. I'll go back through my cover letters and see exactly where I've applied in Boston and may shoot you a PM, thanks.

Any creative suggestions for San Francisco/West Coast options? I've talked to quite a few alumni in SF and the more I think about it the more attractive it is to have a fresh start geographically.

[Edgnar]

Not much help here, but this thread makes me feel about 50 times better about not being accepted to any of the law schools I applied to.

[TNKen]

Tough times in the law field. Transactional work has dried up in our part of the world. Banks aren't loaning. A few work out deals, but not much. Tons of collection/foreclosure/bankruptcy work.

No divorce work, people can't afford to live apart, w/ alimony, child support, two overheads, etc. Leading to an increase in domestic relations work, primarily domestic assault.

Criminal activity is up, due to no money, thievery and drugs. Might try a Prosecutor's office, Public defender's office.

Personal Injury work is down. Adjusters throw out a bone on a case, and people take it because they are broke.

My thoughts. Get out of NYC. Prosecutor/Public Defender. Might try for an FBI/ATF slot. Don't know if the FDIC is hiring, but banks are failing all over. If you get out there, you might also start accepting court appointed criminal work. Not the best paying work, but it usually brings people back to you, unfortunately, maybe not the ones you want to see again.

Might also make a proposal to a small firm. Eat what you kill. They give you a desk, and you get a percentage of what you bring in. Have them give you 6 months at no rent. After that, you start sharing in paying for the overhead. Small at first, but building over time. We have a lady in our firm that is on that system. 55/45 split. We get 45, but she also pays a few thousand each month for overhead. We furnish office, secretary and malpractice coverage. We try to make sure she stays busy with work, and she generates a bunch on her own. One of the things she has been successful in landing for us is §1983 and med-mal work for the state.

I could not practice alone. I don't pretend to be that smart, and most of us get tunnel visioned. It is certainly a great thing to have someone to bounce things off of. I can't imagine starting a solo practice right now.

[Hutch]

Ken's FDIC idea is a good one. I understand that they don't have the manpower they need to shut down banks as fast as they want to. Not sure if its legal manpower they are short on, or if they have the budgets they need, but you would get familiar with loan docs real quick in that job, which would be a decent foundation for a transactional practice later.

I'm glad things aren't as bad in Utah as they sound in Tennessee. Lawyers I know are all busy here.

[LHutz Esq]

I have a bit of experience in what we think of as Big Law, here in BC. Not NYC material but it might be useful. It also might not as we have a great deal of labour mobility here and I have no idea what you have there.

My main question is why do you want to lose your life working like a slave in a big firm? I am taking a stab at it here but I guess you like skiing- so are you are willing to give that up until you make partner? Or be one of those folks with the blue-tooth thingy hooked up while skiing?

I spent some time in a larger firm in Vancouver (100 lawyers in Van - 1,200 internationally - so small by NYC standards- but large for BC) but after living a couple hours from the mountains and getting maybe a couple days of skiing a year, the money just wasn't worth it. I moved to the snow, negotiated a powder clause in the contract and never looked back.

Yes I make less, but not necessarily if you look at it on a per hour basis, but I absolutely live more. .

So - for what it is worth - graduating in this economy may be the best thing that ever happened to you.

Although, I hear that there are gyms in NY where you can train for Alaska.

[Hutch]

^^^ or for that matter, why transactional work? Litigation is fun.

[Danno]

Wish I could offer real help. Do have one question: you haven't passed the bar yet? Did you fail once, not take it, something I don't know about ny bar? Because not having passed makes it a very uphill battle for you. In this market, who would hire someone who isn't licensed when so many licensed lawyers are looking for work?

Pass it and then maybe the job situation will improve. Take anything, don't worry about being pigeon holed, just keep looking for something better. Always better to look for work while working.

Side note: no prospective law student should ever go to school with the plan of killing it. 90% of your classmates will have the same plan, and not all will be top ten.

[KenJongIll]

Sorry for the shitty situation.
I'm not a lawyer and know not shit about lawyering. I think you say your area of expertise/interest is in mergers and acquisitions. Just a thought. I live in Charlotte where BoA is HQ'd and Wachovia was before WF bought them but still has a huge presence and a lot their business. Lots of other banking/financial jobs.
Perhaps look down here. Charlotte is pretty good town, lots of young people. Not sure what the hiring climate is at the banks, but it's better than it was a few. Years ago for sure.

Like I said, m not expert in your field, but it might be an option you haven't considered.

Good luck.

[phishstx]

Wish I could offer real help. Do have one question: you haven't passed the bar yet? Did you fail once, not take it, something I don't know about ny bar? Because not having passed makes it a very uphill battle for you. In this market, who would hire someone who isn't licensed when so many licensed lawyers are looking for work?

Pass it and then maybe the job situation will improve. Take anything, don't worry about being pigeon holed, just keep looking for something better. Always better to look for work while working.

Side note: no prospective law student should ever go to school with the plan of killing it. 90% of your classmates will have the same plan, and not all will be top ten.

Yeah I missed the NY bar in July by 3 points (1 unweighted point on the very first essay, really shit the bed). I was working my part-time non-law job all summer and searching for "real" work and didn't take studying as seriously as I should have, very stupid and a major speed bump but retook it in February. And yes, I realize now that the nature of law school is people who have killed it at everything up to that point and have every reason to believe the trend will continue.

^^^ or for that matter, why transactional work? Litigation is fun.

Tunnel vision I suppose, I certainly haven't limited my search to transactional it's just my preference. Been making decent money doing appellate briefs for small offices that need help, and I actually really like the nature of appellate work. Like many of you have said, I'm taking what I can get right now but it's not a career and it's frustrating.

My main question is why do you want to lose your life working like a slave in a big firm? I am taking a stab at it here but I guess you like skiing- so are you are willing to give that up until you make partner? Or be one of those folks with the blue-tooth thingy hooked up while skiing?

I spent some time in a larger firm in Vancouver (100 lawyers in Van - 1,200 internationally - so small by NYC standards- but large for BC) but after living a couple hours from the mountains and getting maybe a couple days of skiing a year, the money just wasn't worth it. I moved to the snow, negotiated a powder clause in the contract and never looked back.

Yes I make less, but not necessarily if you look at it on a per hour basis, but I absolutely live more. .

So - for what it is worth - graduating in this economy may be the best thing that ever happened to you.

Although, I hear that there are gyms in NY where you can train for Alaska.

I guess my naive plan originally was to put 2-3 years in at Big Law and then make a more lifestyle (skiing) friendly move, the reasoning being that I would have some money and some pretty good options at that point. Plus I would have been able to afford so many GoPros and get ripped for AK. I shit the bed on that plan, but you're right that it's been kind of liberating having certain options off the table, allowing me to look at better opportunities that I may not have considered originally.

Thanks for all the input all.

[phishstx]

If nothing else, this will be a good thread to reference for people who start "should I go to law school" threads.

[samthaman]

I guess my naive plan originally was to put 2-3 years in at Big Law and then make a more lifestyle (skiing) friendly move, the reasoning being that I would have some money and some pretty good options at that point. Plus I would have been able to afford so many GoPros and get ripped for AK. I shit the bed on that plan, but you're right that it's been kind of liberating having certain options off the table, allowing me to look at better opportunities that I may not have considered originally.

Thanks for all the input all.

I graduated from college in 08 and hoped to work entry level jobs and make a little money, then quit, travel and go to grad school. noone was really looking for liberal arts degrees in 08.

If nothing else, this will be a good thread to reference for people who start "should I go to law school" threads.

yup

[Danno]

Yeah I missed the NY bar in July by 3 points (1 unweighted point on the very first essay, really shit the bed). I was working my part-time non-law job all summer and searching for "real" work and didn't take studying as seriously as I should have, very stupid and a major speed bump but retook it in February.

Sorry about the close miss. [ psychoanalysis] I'm wondering if one problem is that you are not being honest with yourself and possibly potential employers. I mean, you start a "having trouble finding a job" thread, but neglect to mention that you didn't pass the bar. That is a pretty important fact to omit, you know? Are you doing the same with employers? Because job searching has one similarity with brief writing: if you have "bad facts", don't ignore them, deal with them head on. [/psychoanalysis]

Just a thought, not trying to harsh on you.

[phishstx]

That's a good point, and it definitely threw a wrench into my already shitty search situation. I was upfront about it with the attorneys in my network, since many had put time and effort into helping me and I owed them that much since it's a big failure on my part. As far as putting out applications and cover letters, I kind of deal with it on a case by case basis and I've shifted a larger portion of my search to non-law positions. Multiple people have said it here already, there's almost no reason for any firm to take a second look at someone who's not admitted yet.

Guess I should have put it in the OP too, but your psychoanalysis was pretty accurate, it's an embarrassing fact that I don't like to think about in general.

[Danno]

Don't sweat it, mang, you'll pass this time and it will become a distant memory.

Another thought: volunteer at anything legal, regardless of whether it is in your chosen field. Gets you experience and shows motivation.