Reverse Camber v. Reverse Sidecut v. Pintail v. Traditional

[Dromond]

That was more directed personally at the Prof. since whenever I've skied with him at Snowbird he's got front-row parking right along the road right by the tram, and he runs out of the Silver Bullet around noon anyways.

However, if "the wrong ski" makes that much of a difference to you or anyone it probably says more about the skier than the ski. 'Tis a poor craftsman who blames their tools.

Well I was totally out of the loop on that one!

And your comment about a craftsman blaming their tools is dead on for me. I have no problem admitting that if I have the drastically wrong ski for a particular I often do not have the skills to make the best of it. Pow+ on scratchy groomers and bumps, anyone? Not me.

[upallnight]

Powder days dictate a need for a powder ski, and I personally am enamored with my spatulas, but as has been elucidated by those who have tried the Moment Comi, a traditionally shaped ski can be just as competent on epic days.

i think pow is pretty easy to ski, and everyone has their favorite shape.... but sometimes our opinion of a ski gets combined with the fact that the days we take those skis out were "epic"...and might have been equally epic on another set of boards.

Personally, I love reverse camber and sidecut, in anything soft they are my ski of choice, the smearing and buttering, combined with the playfulness more than outweighs the less than stellar groomer performance. On any day I’m taking spatulas out, I’m worrying about my favorite stashes getting tracked out, not if my skis will lay a trench on the groomer or zipper line bumps. If it were my only ski, reverse sidecut and camber would be less than fortunate, and I would much prefer to own a normal camber and sidecut midfat, but I can’t see anyone with spatulas/lotus 120/138/pontoons/sumo/praxix/comi or anything that size as their only ski. I say to each his own, and if you ever ski in a mixed group, say one person on spatulas, one on big daddies, one on this years big daddies, make sure you represent your ski type well so the others don’t judge your skis as “shitty”

To sum things up, I believe that this argument is moot and pointless, each person will go their own way according to their personal preference. As long as other, "normal" skis are involved, there really isn't a wrong choice when it comes to shape, there are some wrong skis, but there are good skis in every shape listed above.

i think this is very well-put and i agree.

You shouldnt say things like that. Someone will take it personal and try to convince you that you are wrong

sometimes posts with different opinions of the same gear are the most interesting. it can highlight differences in revewers' weights, gear choice, skiing terrain, style, ability... or just preferences. detractor #1 might hate a piece of gear and bash it loudly. if no one hear's evangelist #2's opinions, then everyone assumes #1 is right. it could be that he is right (or more right than #2), but often the first or simply the loudest voice wins, and group-think* comes into play.

[* Sometimes group-think has to come into play as not everyone has the time, money, or available number of pow days to try everything.]

good discussion.

[pechelman]

I think I want a ski with traditional sidecut that is built with camber and then has a wire tensioning system built into it like a slingshot bike that allows you, with the flick of a lever, to rocker the front, rear or both by tensioning the wire

Ive already been thinking of this and ways to attach it and make it easily adjustable. Just need some time where Im not busy with everything else.
Oh yea, and I also need to work on the binding plate deal, although it might be kinda pointless with the duke and whatever BD's supertopsecret binding is in the future.

Im also combining the adjustable rocker idea with a ballast idea that I think would be especially useful with varying conditions.

[Arty50]

Im also combining the adjustable rocker idea with a ballast idea that I think would be especially useful with varying conditions.

Meh, it's been done before...

[upallnight]

Ive already been thinking of this and ways to attach it and make it easily adjustable. Just need some time where Im not busy with everything else.
Oh yea, and I also need to work on the binding plate deal, although it might be kinda pointless with the duke and whatever BD's supertopsecret binding is in the future.

Im also combining the adjustable rocker idea with a ballast idea that I think would be especially useful with varying conditions.

leave it to the rocket (errr race car) scientist to bring something truly NEW to ski design.

cool! i look forward to hearing more about it. aside from the water skiing cross over and some advances in materials, there's been little revolutionary in skis in terms of improving on-snow performance. (not counting metal edges, ptex bases, and other basics) most ski designs are really very close -- separate by only tiny increments in performance.

[Roo]

Being from Yurp and not from Utah, I don't get to ski a lot of those bottomless pow days. What I'm looking for is a ski that skis crap better than anything else. By crap I mean wind affected snow, crust and slush. So far nothing I've tried does the job better than the Spatulas. They make an average skier like me look good.

They just weigh too damn much when you're hauling 'em onto lifts and hiking. Hello Praxis.

[Jumper Bones]

I want a Saab I can deep six.

[verbier61]

Being from Yurp and not from Utah, I don't get to ski a lot of those bottomless pow days. What I'm looking for is a ski that skis crap better than anything else. By crap I mean wind affected snow, crust and slush. So far nothing I've tried does the job better than the Spatulas. They make an average skier like me look good.

They just weigh too damn much when you're hauling 'em onto lifts and hiking. Hello Praxis.

138

[Arno]

Being from Yurp and not from Utah, I don't get to ski a lot of those bottomless pow days. What I'm looking for is a ski that skis crap better than anything else. By crap I mean wind affected snow, crust and slush. So far nothing I've tried does the job better than the Spatulas. They make an average skier like me look good.

They just weigh too damn much when you're hauling 'em onto lifts and hiking. Hello Praxis.

i'd let you try my lotuses if you didn't have that bad habit of breaking skis

[Jiehkevarri]

Hello Praxis

Slightly off topic. But I guess you should consider ARG too.

I just heard a praising review from one Finnish ex-freestyle skier (a very good one, ex competitive mogul guy, also competed in several all-scandinavian big airs/slopestyles, and now reforming to a more all-around skier with new school twist).

Anyway, the guy said that ARG's are totally manageable on groomers, just require some more attention and are a bit tiring than traditional sidecut skis. On the softer snow his description sounded just like Spats...i.e. all praise and how he's never going to use anything else if there's just a few cm's of soft/natural snow around. (who would have guessed that?...)

Just a though cause I guess ARG's are more available in Euro land?

Btw. Even with limited "real mountain" days my next purchase is going to be either Praxis/ARG/maybe Lotus (or something alike) or K2 Hellbent (or something alike). I even guess those design will work pretty well in North-Scandinavian conditions (with smaller hills but lots of several types of crappy snow conditions...)

[Roo]

As much as I like the idea of the Lotus 138, I'm fairly certain that, as Arno alludes, I would destroy them in pretty short order.

ARGs? Those things give me a headache just looking at them.

[philippeR]

Being from Yurp and not from Utah, I don't get to ski a lot of those bottomless pow days. What I'm looking for is a ski that skis crap better than anything else. By crap I mean wind affected snow, crust and slush. So far nothing I've tried does the job better than the Spatulas. They make an average skier like me look good.

They just weigh too damn much when you're hauling 'em onto lifts and hiking. Hello Praxis.

I've never skied a spatula, or a spatula-like shape, but it looks like they would suck on your average scrapped steep couloir, non ? They need at least a few inches of soft snow to perform the way they are supposed to. And we did lack those few inches quite frequently in yurp this year.
Or am I missing something ?
(That, and I love carving a nice groomer...)

[Arno]

actually, topsheets aside, the lotuses feel like pretty bomber skis.

that said, i haven't done any flat landings on brownmonkey's face yet so who knows?

[Jiehkevarri]

ARGs? Those things give me a headache just looking at them.

Spray paint? Contact paper? etc.

I've actually given up hoping for cleaner ski graphics (ok, Dp skis are great but so are their price). And I've been thinking that a bottle of black spray paint would just do it. Even if it looks totally fugly that way too, atleast it would be kind of a statement... (think Hellbents painted totally black!)

[jerr]

I love engaging a wide (100+) trad ski in a carve through powder or cut up. It feels so damn good. I will also say that I've never ridden a rev-rev ski. But I have bought a pair of 138's that await the southern hem winter. The way I see it these types of skis provide a 'magic carpet' experience that a trad ski just can't do. Whether it's better or not comes down to personal preference. For me? I want to feel that.

Rev side cut on hard pack?

The days I'll be riding my 138's all I'll be thinking as I groomer my way back to the lift is "I want to get back to the top." As long as I understand the skis behaviour on groomers - and it's managable and consistent, which seems to be the case - I'm happy.

Time for one of these

[Roo]

I've never skied a spatula, or a spatula-like shape, but it looks like they would suck on your average scrapped steep couloir, non ? They need at least a few inches of soft snow to perform the way they are supposed to. And we did lack those few inches quite frequently in yurp this year.
Or am I missing something ?
(That, and I love carving a nice groomer...)

Phil,

The Spats work surprisingly well as couloir skis. For a start there is no tip and tail hangup whatsoever and they pivot really quick. It's nice not to feel that bouncing, suspended feeling that traditional skis often put you in on tight stuff. Even on harder snow they feel OK because you have that constant contact underfoot.

A couple of shots from last year in Alpe d'Huez...


Couloir Fleur


Couloir de Cheminee de Mascle

[verbier61]

I've never skied a spatula, or a spatula-like shape, but it looks like they would suck on your average scrapped steep couloir, non ? They need at least a few inches of soft snow to perform the way they are supposed to. And we did lack those few inches quite frequently in yurp this year.
Or am I missing something ?
(That, and I love carving a nice groomer...)

there's the right time for a scrapped steep couloir, and the right time for powder. few cm or one meter of powder, then reverse camber etc skis have a clearcut advantage over anything else. This s@itty current winter powder days were not so many, but there have been, and most likely there will be in future winters.

[philippeR]

I hear you Verbier. As a pow-only ski, a specialized tool, I perfectly see the point of a spatula.
I was reacting to Roo's posts, saying he had no use for anything not "reverse / reverse", but for a touring set up. ie, a spat - like ski could be his main ride for europe.
Roo, thanks for the answer. I tend to like a idea of a long edge under my foot on such terrain... I guess I'll have to demo and find how it feels, as I've actualy no idea of what I'm talking about ! But those ski are still very uncommon around here.

(Great 2nd photo... Really an average skier )

[verbier61]

I hear you Verbier. As a pow-only ski, a specialized tool, I perfectly see the point of a spatula.
I was reacting to Roo's posts, saying he had no use for anything not "reverse / reverse", but for a touring set up. ie, a spat - like ski could be his main ride for europe.
Roo, thanks for the answer. I tend to like a idea of a long edge under my foot on such terrain... I guess I'll have to demo and find how it feels, as I've actualy no idea of what I'm talking about ! But those ski are still very uncommon around here.

(Great 2nd photo... Really an average skier )

understood!!

go to ski service in verbier. though they're not the most sympa staff in the world, they have spatula, pontoons and armada ARG for rent. said that, I think lotus 138 are more fun that those.... albeit I am not a big scandi guy and am not sure to be always happy to have a 192 ski under my foot in very tight, steep couloirs

[Damian Sanders]

A lot of times around where I ski there can be an Icy rain crust over the entire mountain while it is puking snow. Throw in a little cross wind and you have places that are completely bottomless and places that are gnar gnar ice crust. For example one day a couple of weeks ago I was skiing in a bowl (chief) at my home mountain (stevens pass) and it was dumping snow and there was howling wind. In order to get into the bowl, which had been loaded to the point of awesomeness, you had to traverse across the top of a long and very steep run where the winds where easily 60+ MPH, the traverse was blue ice and I know from experience that a fall on that run can easily equal an ~800 ft vert fall ending in a clump of trees known as the femur trees. The skiing in the bowl was amazing and I wished for a fatter ski but on the way over I really aprecieted having 1.9m of metal edge to stand on. And if for some reason the bowl was roped off and I had to ski down the run I would definently have been scared on a ski like a spat

Uh......yeah dude. Stowe isn't exactly the easiest place to get around to get to the goods. Ice, super tight trees, chutes, etc, etc, etc. That's why I'm not on spats, or some other wacky one trick pony. The big daddies are pretty decent on just about everything, and can be taken anywhere, for a 125mm waist powder ski.....that means I can take them out much more often, because I won't struggle on various conditions like someone with spats would.

[Professor]

Edit to add that you should seriously just get a pair of Pontoons. You can carve on them. If you don't believe me ask lph.

Umm No.... I dont think there is anything the Pontoons would do that the Sumos wont do just fine. If that statement doesnt start a whole new line of argument, I dont know what will. And after all, "You did come here for an argument"

[verbier61]

Umm No.... I dont think there is anything the Pontoons would do that the Sumos wont do just fine. If that statement doesnt start a whole new line of argument, I dont know what will. And after all, "You did come here for an argument"

got to sorta disagree. floatation is totally different. The way 'toons float, BTW, is really different from spats-shaped sticks like ARG and lotus 138. 'Toons big shovel and small tail generates a different floatation (which I dedided to like less than that of lotus 138, but this is a different story).

[pechelman]

Umm No.... I dont think there is anything the Pontoons would do that the Sumos wont do just fine. If that statement doesnt start a whole new line of argument, I dont know what will. And after all, "You did come here for an argument"

i think here's how Im reading what you want

Powder, all you want is surface area. Honestly it sounds like thats all you need since you sound like a very strong skier and can make up for any deficiency any ski might have in powder.

On hardpack, its either one of two things. You're either too powerful (or possibly impatient?) for a tapered tail design and instead of carving it clean, you end up skidding it out. Maybe these pintails require a bit more gentle finesse to carve them? (pure conjecture because Ive never been on one)
Im sure the tele turn comes into play here somewhere as well.
Or 2, quite simply, theres just not enough sidecut to carve.
probably a combination of the two i guess.

good thread indeed

[TahoePowShredder]

this is the dumbest thread I have ever read.

you guys are arguing back and forth about nothing. whatever ski you like, ski it. fuck.....it's that simple.

[Professor]

i think here's how Im reading what you want

Powder, all you want is surface area. Honestly it sounds like thats all you need since you sound like a very strong skier and can make up for any deficiency any ski might have in powder.

On hardpack, its either one of two things. You're either too powerful (or possibly impatient?) for a tapered tail design and instead of carving it clean, you end up skidding it out. Maybe these pintails require a bit more gentle finesse to carve them? (pure conjecture because Ive never been on one)
Im sure the tele turn comes into play here somewhere as well.
Or 2, quite simply, theres just not enough sidecut to carve.
probably a combination of the two i guess.

good thread indeed

I think you hit it on two points. The surface area on a Sumo is loads of float. Honestly I cant imagine more float being necessary even in funky snow. Also having the tail sink a bit more to assist the shovel was not a feeling I cared for on the EHP and 120. As for the tapered design, the turn radius is so big that it doesnt come across the fall line, so the carved turn is unusable unless it is really wide open. But as I said in another thread, the pintail design of the EHP and the 120 will carve, but it is a fight to make it carve clean and not skid and just not a feeling I liked. As for the tele turn, that is really a non factor, since I dont make too many tele turns these days (but that is a whole different thread/argument)

Edit: Just to address the thread above... if this is the dumbest thread you have ever read, you obviously didnt look very hard.....