Footbeds are Bad?

[dirtybryan]

So I was working with my bootfitter and he suggested I stop using footbeds. His justification made sense, but this was the first time I had heard it. He said that you get better response by giving your foot room to roll ever so slightly in the boot to you can start your turn in your feet whereas the footbed keeps your foot from being able to roll and you have to start your turn further up your leg. He said orthopedic surgeons confirmed this and that arch support is more important for forward motions like running then lateral movements like rolling your foot into turns.

He said he knows that this is against the conventional wisdom that the footbed allows quicker transmission by eliminating this "play."

Anyone have any input on this? I searched but I only came upon the unweighted vs weighted footbeds.

[Core Shot]

He is a moron.

[bklyn]

As soon as your foot rolls onto the footbed, you start the turn with your feet. Or to put it more directly...

He is a moron.

[cantunamunch]

From another website,

+++++++++++++

I’ve seen it out there and available. Some footbed makers have been for many years adding tremendous inversion to there footbeds, already in the molding and posting process, (lifting the whole medial side).

If you look at the biomechanics, you are essentially inverting the foot and ankle, which initially brings or forces the knee mass lateral or worst, it uses up ankle and foot inversion and blocks eversion range of the subtaler joint (making the peroneals useless. .) It may also cause forefoot problems.

This then causes skiers to use more adductor leverage to bring the knee mass back inside the ski edge. This is possibly a ski technique by itself, but not one I advocate, as it adds stress to the knee and it also causes greater rotational forces to occur from higher in the body. I try to reduce these gross influences, with shaped skis especially. This approach will also have some bearing and may cause difficulty for some widths of skis and the effect on the access to tipping of those skis. I’m talking about ski width. A wide ski already requires more leverage to tip. On hard snow the resistance is strong from such skis. If the foot and ankle are locked up by a device induced inverted position, the ankle has little capability for leveraging the boot, co-contraction (balancing movements and stabilizing the joint) or adding controlled fine tuning balance.

My approach is to make the footbed properly from the start. If more posting is desired or if the foot bed is old, some posting can extend the life of the footbed for a short period. But it depends tremendously on the type of foot. This approach would be very harmful to the cavus foot with little range or flexibility.

With Erik Schlopy for example, we do the exact opposite, we make the medial side of the boot board compressible by 2 mm. This helps him evert his foot, as his feet are very rigid and he has difficulty getting his ankle to move medially toward the side of the boot. (a related topic for further disscussion would be foot and ankle movements for levering the boot and ski, and why is it necessary to access the medial side of the boot with the ankle to control edging and make fine tuning adjustments.)

What I find is more usual out in the ski world, is that the worst of all combinations are being used and applied to feet and ankles that are totally functional and are actually being compromised with footbed devices. Example: A hard or rigid arched footbed with a radically lifted arch applied, made with no regard for the measurements of individuals or consideration of subtler alignment and no forefoot position taken in consideration.

There may be some benefits to strengthening the medial side of the foot by lifting the footbed or boot board. It sure makes a skier feel like there is a strong edge on the ski, but this is often not a high edge angle or strong edging. There is a difference between the performance related outcomes of these definitions.

A locked or restricted foot causes balancing to occur higher in the kinetic chain. I look at these things logically and I try not to overdo any particular point in the system or joint areas.

Remember, we can all sometimes be fooled by what we perceive as a good adjustment, just because it feels different, not because it is actually producing better performance. The body has a great ability to adjust, especially to incorrect alignment, and after awhile it may even begin to feel natural.

I am, just as most skiers are, susceptible to even extreme alignment variations, sometimes I think I’m accessing my edges and angles better, but after I see some video and analyze the situation, I usually go back to the tried and true measurement. Our bodies are very good at fooling us.

Thread is here, heh heh.

[Ottime]

Agree with the

He's a moron

verdict.

Start your turn without the play

[Nobody Famous]

You should find another bootfitter.

[mntlion]

try it and see what you think and feel.

I can see some of the logic, but not much.

[Krash]

So I was working with my bootfitter and he suggested I stop using footbeds. His justification made sense, but this was the first time I had heard it. He said that you get better response by giving your foot room to roll ever so slightly in the boot to you can start your turn in your feet whereas the footbed keeps your foot from being able to roll and you have to start your turn further up your leg. He said orthopedic surgeons confirmed this and that arch support is more important for forward motions like running then lateral movements like rolling your foot into turns.

He said he knows that this is against the conventional wisdom that the footbed allows quicker transmission by eliminating this "play."

Anyone have any input on this? I searched but I only came upon the unweighted vs weighted footbeds.

He is not all BS. I agree that the foot needs to be able to articulate, inversion and eversion. That is why I build weighted neutral molded footbeds. They allow the foot to absorb shock, as well as articulate side to side. Not everyone NEEDS footbeds, but most people will benefit. With that said, a footbed that is inverting the foot past neutral and locking out the subtalar is VERY BAD.

Thats my 2c

[fez]

my boot fitter (Tom at GAS in Big Sky) says the same thing. in fact, he says he used to sell footbeds but wont any more. claims that for most skiers they do more harm than good.

fwiw, i still use mine.

[Voltron]

I think tossing out footbeds entirely is a little extreme, but I agree with the concept. I don't like built-up solid arches in footbeds for that reason.

[stew130]

I'm in the moron camp. Wait that didn't sound right.
You've got to hand it to the guy. He is talking you out of buying something that could potentially make him a lot of money, but does require some work to do right. So either he's an ethical moron or just lazy. Does he have some other gimmick to sell to make up for lost income or just charge more for his innovative thinking?

[foreal]

This was a completely foreign thought to me until a few days ago. Skiing without footbeds would be like skiing without poles to me. But, while talking to the folks at Intuition, they also reccomended not using footbeds. I'm sure every foot is different, but for those that pronate a lot I would imagine footbeds are deff. needed.

However, there are guys that are skking nowdays without poles aren't there...

[Core Shot]

Am I the only one that hears Mr Mackey everytime this thread gets bumped?

[JeffreyJim]

I took mine out of my intuitions in my Flexons...but that was mostly due to volume (the little extra a footbed added=not enough room for my foot) I didn't notice a difference in performance but I've got VERY flat feet anyway...not sure if that has an effect or not.

If Larry says you should use them, (which he does) use them.

Anybody else catch the article about him in the paper this morning???

[MOHSHSIHd]

It does go against all logic, but I stopped using a bed when I switched to Intuitions and my turning improved, and my boots were alot more comfortable.


but I could be a weird case

[cfoster]

It is very important to note that the reason Intuition reccomends not using a footbed is because the liner will take up much of the arch and act as a footbed. The liner offers support instead. Don't get this confused with having no support in your boots. Having support for you feet is a good thing no matter what. Very few people have perfect feet. For many people having the proper alignment will make a huge difference for them. If it does not affect their skiing it may very well affect their comfort because they are going to be on their feet all day.

Again this guy is a moron.

[altagirl]

It is very important to note that the reason Intuition reccomends not using a footbed is because the liner will take up much of the arch and act as a footbed. The liner offers support instead. Don't get this confused with having no support in your boots. Having support for you feet is a good thing no matter what. Very few people have perfect feet. For many people having the proper alignment will make a huge difference for them. If it does not affect their skiing it may very well affect their comfort because they are going to be on their feet all day.

Again this guy is a moron.

I agree. There's a reason Intuition recommends removing footbeds. That doesn't apply to any other boots/liners.

[trouble]

snowcovers here in van seems to be all about the very flexible footbeds and lots of ankle room for rolling the foot inside the boot. I can't imagine them saying don't use a footbed though. They would probably just sell you a 200 dollar flat piece of rubber to use as a footbed instead.

[dirtybryan]

I'm definitely going to give it a try both ways when I finally get on snow. Anyone who has actually done any research still think he is a complete moron? To me it gels with the whole ankles->knees->hip progression of how you should be edging.

And not to open another can of worms, but I thought intuition finally decided that you should stick your footbeds in their liners despite having formally saying not to?

[dirtybryan]

snowcovers here in van seems to be all about the very flexible footbeds and lots of ankle room for rolling the foot inside the boot. I can't imagine them saying don't use a footbed though. They would probably just sell you a 200 dollar flat piece of rubber to use as a footbed instead.

Funny, thats where I am at and the guy I'm working with came highly recommended to me.

[irul&ublo]

As a pronator, my feet are miserable w/o footbeds.

[milkman]

Funny, thats where I am at and the guy I'm working with came highly recommended to me.

I've had good and bad experiences with snowcovers. I went in there a few weeks ago for a new boot and was working with a guy that insisted I need a 27 or 28 boot for my size 9 foot. I told him I needed to be in a 25, but he thought it was a bad idea.....Needless to say I went elsewhere.....A few years ago Kim (the owner) fit my boots and I had a great experience....Just depends on who you get in there....

[Jax]

If Larry says you should use them, (which he does) use them.

Anybody else catch the article about him in the paper this morning???

Which paper? Googled, but could not find. Thanks!

[Garrett]

Your guy is probably a tool, but there is some nugget of truth buried in there somewhere. Alternately, he might be completely right about this in your context but you extrapolated more from it than he actually said.

I do not like stiffly posted footbeds for myself. Honestly, my go-to beds are 30 dollar trim to fits, and I've had the opportunity to ski on examples of most of the major brands of bed well made by competent people . This puts me in the minority. For a good portion of the skiing public, well made footbeds of one sort or another will be beneficial. For a small portion, they are practically mandatory.

Chances are good that not many here are skiing in very low volume stiff plug boots with a stiffly posted bed. For those that are, it may or may not be worthwhile to try a different bed from a different school of thought.

[Jax]

Nevermind- found it thanks!


http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm...734605,00.html