2008-2009 Colorado Snowpack Observations

[Hacksaw]

Anyway, Hacksaw, do you have a sense for how many non-observer reports the CAIC receives? Just curious how well the general public does with emailing in info and obs.

Justin

Justin,
Since I'm no longer with the CAIC I don't hear much about what gets called/faxed or emailed into them.

When I was with the CAIC I think that there where more and more "unoffical" observer reports emailed in from folks each winter. So, its slowly growing.

I know that I have called and faxed in some reports that they have used a couple of things from this winter. It all depends upon what time of day you report in. But, what really helps the forecaster is to hear from the field that their forecast has been confirmed or was way off the mark.

Halsted

[Obi-Jong Kenobi]

The bottom layer was quite faceted but mostly soft snow on top.

[montanaskier]

Did a tour up to Shrine today. Didn't get any skiing in, conditions were...ummmmm....WINDY. Holy Shit was it blowing up there. I would say 30mph sustained and gusts to 60. Wind slabs are gonna be a bitch with all this wind. Be careful.

[~mikey b]

You didn't ski? Dood - you can easily find safe turns up there. You and I need to sit down over a beer and a map.

Winds were indeed smoking. Easily gusts to 60. Zero visibility over Ptamigan Pass. Got a bit dodgy riding the sled at times. I'll be surprised if we don't start seeing something happen soon. With facets on the ground, faceting in the mid-pack, and tons of new snow load, we've got a lot going on.

[montanaskier]

i met up with a mag from Boulder. It was my first time up there, i should have crossed the road and headed up Uneva, oh well. Beer and map...mmmmmm.

[freejustin]

Berthoud Pass - Current Creek 12-30-07

Harsh winds above treeline. Slabs were building rapidly. Cracking was not propagating very far on 28 deg slope, however it just needs a little more time to increase stress and gain energy. Basically 10cm wind slab on top of facets.

Below treeline, however, the lower angled terrain in the trees was deep and fresh. This was all before noon. It's probably quite different now.

The new snow falling/blowing was very light density. Since this is a warm front, I wonder if temps will rise and we'll get a density change towards warmer/denser snow?

[Micol]

I have heard from a pretty reliable source that there was an incident in the sidecountry at Vail in the East Vail Chutes area. It was supposed to have occured aproximately 10 days ago. A 600ft run. Does anyone know anything about this. No report on CAIC.

[Rontele]

Toured around Vail Pass down to red cliff. There was obviously tremendous blowing and loading of lee slopes. The snow was very dense and thick, making turning a chore. We stuck to the lowest angles as many of the rollovers on the slopes we intended to ski were sketching us out.

There is now a thick and robust windslab on all lee slopes. It wasn't going anywhere, but the undersuface depth hoar is still present and could eventually, with enough pressure release real HUDGE.

[~mikey b]

I have heard from a pretty reliable source that there was an incident in the sidecountry at Vail in the East Vail Chutes area. It was supposed to have occured aproximately 10 days ago. A 600ft run. Does anyone know anything about this. No report on CAIC.

they've been mentioning it in the forecasts - last reported human-triggered avalanche in the Vail/Summit zone

[Micol]

they've been mentioning it in the forecasts - last reported human-triggered avalanche in the Vail/Summit zone

Found that one in the Forecast section on or about Dec12-14. Shouldnt that report be in "Accidents" because the first early season Nov report didnt have burials either and it is in "Accidents".

I guess the reason I am mentioning this is that it is not something that a vail resort visitor is going to ever find. From what i understand from a reputable source is that this was a offf duty ski patroler from another resort and four or five other very experienced bc skiers and they were in the Vail East Chutes.

Now if I am not mistaken when I worked vail lifts, this area is accessed through Vail terrain. Much like that situation back in 2005 at Ten Mile where the three guys (one of which is on this board) triggered two slides accessing the terrain from Breck. That situation appeared in Accident column even though they never rode in the slide.

Why is this recent Vail accident not in accidents column where it really ought to be IMO. After that inbound Canyons incident, people who ski resorts have a right to know so maybe they can decide whether they want to ski in such conditions or choose less dangerous terrain.

[Hacksaw]

Well, why don't you email the CAIC with you opions....

[Micol]

Toured around Vail Pass down to red cliff. There was obviously tremendous blowing and loading of lee slopes. The snow was very dense and thick, making turning a chore. We stuck to the lowest angles as many of the rollovers on the slopes we intended to ski were sketching us out.

There is now a thick and robust windslab on all lee slopes. It wasn't going anywhere, but the undersuface depth hoar is still present and could eventually, with enough pressure release real HUDGE.

caic has switched everything in area from considerable to high. makes me very nervous.

The wind coming home last night from silverthorne to leadvegas was gusting super hard. i can imagine how loaded it must be out there.

im staying out of bc for a little while for sure, unless its pure tour and low incline terrain

[Micol]

Well, why don't you email the CAIC with you opions....

I sent them one this morning before I found the report in forecasts. It was simply inquiring if what I heard had been reported or not.

I've read you used to work for caic, what are your thoughts on situations like this. obviously, similar situations and some not even as serious as this one have found there way into the accident catagory.

[Micol]

i reviewed my follow up email to caic after finding the report in forecasts and i did ask if it should be in accidents. no reply as of yet

[Hacksaw]

Well, if it was only a human triggered avalanche with no one caught and buried (fully or partly) then it is just a "closecall."

An "accident," is where someone is actually caught and/or buried. Hopefuly, it is not a fatal accident.

Sure, I think "closecalls," should posted on the CAIC accident webpage in more detail. But, you have to remember that a lot of times closecall information only comes to the CAIC second hand, or on a short fast phone message/email that lacks a lot of details. The solo Boulder CAIC forecaster doesn't have the time to callback/email in a lot of cases, to request more and more details; while having to get out 13 zones of forecasts in a timely manner.

And with the current weather poop hitting the fan, I'm sure that a closecall from 5+ days ago was way down the list of "things to worry about." The scary thing is that we (when I was with the CAIC) always figured for every reported closecall, there where a couple more unreported out there....

Cheers,
Halsted

[Micol]

Well, if it was only a human triggered avalanche with no one caught and buried (fully or partly) then it is just a "closecall."

An "accident," is where someone is actually caught and/or buried. Hopefuly, it is not a fatal accident.

Sure, I think "closecalls," should posted on the CAIC accident webpage in more detail. But, you have to remember that a lot of times closecall information only comes to the CAIC second hand, or on a short fast phone message/email that lacks a lot of details. The solo Boulder CAIC forecaster doesn't have the time to callback/email in a lot of cases, to request more and more details; while having to get out 13 zones of forecasts in a timely manner. "


Cheers,
Halsted

Damn, didnt know just one forecaster covering the whole region. That place needs some unpaid interns to be helping them out!


"And with the current weather poop hitting the fan, I'm sure that a closecall from 5+ days ago was way down the list of "things to worry about." The scary thing is that we (when I was with the CAIC) always figured for every reported closecall, there where a couple more unreported out there...."


I believe it, gotta be several out there nonreported for every one that makes it to print.

[montanaskier]

The man was identified as Jesse Brigham, a Vail Resorts employee who was originally from Boston.

Brigham was skiing with two other skiers in the East Vail Chutes shortly before noon when the avalanche slid.

All three skiers were wearing avalanche beacons, the Sheriff’s Office said, and Brigham’s two skiing companions were able to find him and begin CPR. Vail Ski Patrol also responded.

Brigham was buried for about 10 to 20 minutes, said Shannon Cordingly of the Sheriff’s Office. The man was pronounced dead shortly thereafter, the Sheriff’s Office said.

The cause of death was asphyxiation, said County Coroner Kara Bettis.

The East Vail Chutes are a popular backcountry skiing area that is outside the boundaries of Vail Mountain but is accessed through the ski area.

About 300 people per day ski the chutes, according to estimates from the Forest Service. Skiers get to the chutes by hiking to a backcountry gate above the top of Chair 22, the surface lift above Mongolia Bowl in Vail’s Back Bowls.

The avalanche danger in the Vail-Summit area Friday was moderate above treeline, with pockets of considerable danger, according to the Colorado Avalanche Information Center.

Experts said they weren’t surprised to see that area slide Friday.

“At times (East Vail) can have some of the best powder skiing you can have in your life,” said Scott Toepher of the avalanche center. “There are times when it would be the worst day of your life. It’s steep, and it’s avalanche prone.”

The last fatality in the East Vail backcountry was in January, 2001, when Joseph Chonko fell while snowboarding home from work and got caught in a terrain trap in the Water Tank Chute. The last death to involve an avalanche was in March 1996, when Vail resident Kevin Burke was buried in a 1,500-foot slide.

Mike Duffy, a longtime local skier who teaches avalanche classes at Colorado Mountain College, said the snowpack appears to be unstable this season across Colorado and the West.

“Everything’s pretty ripe,” he said.

A lot of people have a false sense of security about the avalanche danger in East Vail Chutes because it’s so close to the ski area, so many people ski it and there hasn’t been a fatality there in several years, Duffy said.

“A lot of people think of it as an extention of the mountain,” he said. “But it’s a whole different world. ... (The death) is kind of a wakeup call for people.”

Avalanche danger has been lessening over the last few days after a windy snowstorm hit the area over the weekend, Toepher said. But a weak, underlying layer in the snowpack is making for close calls with avalanches across the state, he said.

A snowboarder was caught in an avalanche near Cameron Pass Dec. 2. He was rescued, but later died of his injuries.

Friday’s Vail fatality was the nation’s 14th avalanche death this season. Eight have been in Washington state.

[jwolter7]

Well, if it was only a human triggered avalanche with no one caught and buried (fully or partly) then it is just a "closecall."

An "accident," is where someone is actually caught and/or buried. Hopefuly, it is not a fatal accident.

I think the proper terms are accident and incident. Accident= someone needing some type of help from another trained persons, and incident being the "close call" = not, needing help from other people from outside the party.

[jwolter7]

http://www.avalanche.ca/default.aspx...58,3,Documents
A link, to a form used in Canada to help with Avy incidents reports.

[pechelman]

was at the resort today, and found that for the most part, all the new snow bonded pretty well to the old, with one exception;

Copper Mountain
Union Meadows Area
Not sure the proper name of it, but I just call it the headwall.
NW facing aspect riddled with rocks, no trees on this face but surrounded by them everywhere else, right at a roll over, right around 11500 ft, id guess ~32-35*

Dropped in from the top of this area and on my first turn a small slab released.
Roughly 4-6" crown (the new snow) which ran about ~30-40ft (was about 15-20ft wide)
Threw in a quick ski cut after that happened and nothing else even hinted of moving.
Bed surface appeared to be hard windslab.
I didnt stick around for more than 20s before making my way down, so this is why its a brief, not very in depth report
hesitated to even post it, but figured what the hey

It wasnt very big, but it definitely could have knocked someone down.
reported it to patrol within 1min of it happening because i happend to run into them on my way out.

[Micol]

you talking about the area that you traverse up to from the top of Sierra lift? the Union Peaks bowl? f

funny, i asked a patroller up at the top of union peak if it slid and he said,"why?" and I said because I like to keep up with it thats why, did you bomb this? he said, yeah there's been lots of slides around here, especially back in Spaulding.

dont know why he seemed so guarded or secretive about it? shit I just wanna know if the shit is stable or not, im not going to start carrying around a shovel , stopping in the middle of runs diggin pits

thats what they are there for, avi control, inbounds

[~mikey b]

I was out and about all over the place at Vail Pass today.

Was stopped for CDOT avalanche control at 0700 at MM184 for about 1/2 hour. Didn't look like they got big results, although I heard they buried 4 lanes of I-70 further east near the tunnel.

Went to Wearyman Creek Trail to see where a couple sleds had been hit and partially buried yesterday in a couple of small slides from above the trail. One of the dirtiest crown's I've ever seen. No continuity to it at all - up and down all along the slope. Slides could have knocked snowmobiles and riders into the creek if they'd been bigger.

Was unable to acces North Ptarmigan to see the reported slide there. Skiers reported that it had gone big all the way down to the trees at the bottom of the slope.

Stomped and poked around on all sorts of slopes on all aspects today. Some easy shear and compression tests in the new snow. Still rotten snow at the ground. Warmer temps may slow faceting down, but what about the added weight? Still managing to drop through to the ground on skis, so I think there is potential for things to step down deep.

[pechelman]

you talking about the area that you traverse up to from the top of Sierra lift? the Union Peaks bowl? f

funny, i asked a patroller up at the top of union peak if it slid and he said,"why?" and I said because I like to keep up with it thats why, did you bomb this? he said, yeah there's been lots of slides around here, especially back in Spaulding.

dont know why he seemed so guarded or secretive about it?

yea its a 2 min traverse if you keep your speed and know where youre going from the top of Sierra. Its not the bowl but below treeline by 200 or so ft.
If you take any of the "runs" in the meadows, they will pretty much all lead you to a smallish meadow with a 500 section of vert that i suppose could be called a bowl, but that I just call a headwall. Its literally almost right before you hit the traverse out of the meadows before you get to whatever flat green takes you back to Timberline.


my guess is he was acting weird because he was wondering if you had any info.

did they ever open up spaulding sunday?
it didnt look too promising when i left at 230


edit:
heres where on their map
their map shows the boundary in the wrong place or that clearing in the wrong space, but either way, its where it happened. My route mspainted in a thin black and the avy where the black square is.
yea.
i know.
its a killer graphic

[Micol]

dbl post

damn wireless connection

[Micol]

yea its a 2 min traverse if you keep your speed and know where youre going from the top of Sierra. Its not the bowl but below treeline by 200 or so ft.
If you take any of the "runs" in the meadows, they will pretty much all lead you to a smallish meadow with a 500 section of vert that i suppose could be called a bowl, but that I just call a headwall. Its literally almost right before you hit the traverse out of the meadows before you get to whatever flat green takes you back to Timberline.


my guess is he was acting weird because he was wondering if you had any info.

did they ever open up spaulding sunday?
it didnt look too promising when i left at 230


edit:
heres where on their map
their map shows the boundary in the wrong place or that clearing in the wrong space, but either way, its where it happened. My route mspainted in a thin black and the avy where the black square is.
yea.
i know.
its a killer graphic

I was in the wrong place, I am going to go take a look tomorrow. I bet they shot it already and its gone. but between what telemike up there above has spotted and posted and the caic reports its looking pretty sketchy all about.
I dont think so on spaulding.

once again i find that caic lists an acciedent in the forecast section with a snomobiler buried with one hand out of snow rescued by others and results in broken bones. now is that a frikken accident or not. it ought to be in the accident section. (Gunnison forecast)

i guess that maybe someone is too worried about running off all the out of town visitors or something? i mean the bigger media (denver, national) never seems to find all those avi runs and accidents buried in the forecasts (no pun intended). but if you are aware they are happening it definately looks like a pattern of weak sno pack throughout summit, pitkin, lake, summit, etc. prime resort territory and or bc territory.

doesnt seem right, but hey im just j q pubic, what do i know