Quiver - 2 skis only

**pechelman** · 10-11-2007, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by shasti

You dont need the LP to ski powder that well anyways. Unless 97 is the widest wiast in your quiver, the job of the LP is "everything else" not pow

well, its my 12" or less ski, and what i most want to be on for any given
"pow" day.

for those bigger days, Im hoping the 192 big bros will step up where a lotus 120 might do the same.

**jdl** · 10-11-2007, 01:32 PM

Spats and Mantra 190.

**gramboh** · 10-11-2007, 02:29 PM

Man I wish I had bought Legend Pros back in 2005 instead of 8800s. I really want that ski now, I wonder if I can find some closeout deals on previous year models.

**teambigdave** · 10-11-2007, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by pechelman

well, its my 12" or less ski, and what i most want to be on for any given
"pow" day.

for those bigger days, Im hoping the 192 big bros will step up where a lotus 120 might do the same.

The 192's are going to turn into an everyday ski. the really handle hardpack exceptionally well and kill it in pow/crud/slop. I ended up on them virtually everyday east/west coast (until the 138's arrived and it starting snowing everyday in N.E.

)

192 Bro's and 138's make the rest of the quiver feel very lonely

**pechelman** · 10-11-2007, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by gramboh

Man I wish I had bought Legend Pros back in 2005 instead of 8800s. I really want that ski now, I wonder if I can find some closeout deals on previous year models.

if you find any, let me know

Originally Posted by teambigdave

The 192's are going to turn into an everyday ski. the really handle hardpack exceptionally well and kill it in pow/crud/slop. I ended up on them virtually everyday east/west coast (until the 138's arrived and it starting snowing everyday in N.E.

)

192 Bro's and 138's make the rest of the quiver feel very lonely

well the 192s I have do have a bit of tip rocker, so not really ideal on hardpack. Also Im not really big\strong\good enough, at least right now without having skied them to know, to think Ill be using them everyday.
Its really a lot of ski for CO at my size and its length\stiffness.

regardless, Im stoked to try something I designed.

**teambigdave** · 10-11-2007, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by pechelman

if you find any, let me know

well the 192s I have do have a bit of tip rocker, so not really ideal on hardpack. Also Im not really big\strong\good enough, at least right now without having skied them to know, to think Ill be using them everyday.
Its really a lot of ski for CO at my size and its length\stiffness.

regardless, Im stoked to try something I designed.

I think the hardpack performance will seriously surprise you. they track well going straight and i never felt that they required a huge amount of effort to ski aggressively on groomers. i may however have a larger beer gut that aids in bending them effectively

I'm stoked to ski on something you designed also

**Big Turns** · 10-11-2007, 03:13 PM

Currently skiing 190 Explosivs and 190 Mantras. Looking to get something wider.
How would you compare the XXL with the Katana?

**Bennett** · 10-12-2007, 12:36 AM

Stockli Stormrider XL for "regular" days

Fat ski of choice for powder days. Kingswood Mid Fats currently for me.

**bcfreerider** · 10-12-2007, 01:46 AM

Katana's with dukes for pow days and touring.

4frnt msp's for icey days? ohh and spring park days.

**Vitamin I** · 10-12-2007, 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by shasti

...Anybody know how/if LP flex differs from that of XXL ?

http://www.endrehals.no/Flexcurves%202007.pdf

Open file, click "Layers" tab on left, check the boxes for Dynastar XXL and 186LP, see flex plot for each ski's running length, notice XXL is stiffer everywhere except the rear-most 6cm of running length.

Would be cool to see data for 194LP (not available).
.

**robnow** · 10-12-2007, 08:42 AM

^^^^^^^^
Very cool graph! Really informative to see this kind of info. According to the graph, ANT and LP in 186 have virtually the same flex which is good to know.
Thanks!

**pechelman** · 10-12-2007, 08:48 AM

take everything from that graph with a grain of salt

having hand flexed both at the same time, the ANT definitely feels stiffer

the graph doesnt tell the whole story in my opinion because it removes camber from the equation and just focuses on the stiffness of the cross-section.

its the same thing with a spring on your mtn bike
if you dont preload it at all, its going to ride softer than if you preload it an inch. In this case, camber is the preload, and the more camber a ski has, which the ANT has a ton more than the LP, the stiffer its going to ski and flex.

**robnow** · 10-12-2007, 08:55 AM

Similar graphs have been posted before and I always wonder how some skis get bumps in their curves. I could see that happenning from bindings but I don't see ski manufacturers in their building processes able to cause these kinds of blips. Unless its from the testing for the graphs and I can't imagine they would test with bindings on. The builder would have to use different woods or other sudden material changes in that part of the ski for that to occur I would think and like I said, I don't imagine they do that.

Any thoughts?

You should put up that graph in it's own thread.

Good point on the camber Pechelman!

**pechelman** · 10-12-2007, 09:02 AM

i know a lot of ski companies reinforce the mounting area with additional layers of glass\carbon etc.

maybe with less high tech manufacturing, they arent able to apply a consistent pressure\temperature so the final cured composite may have higher properties where its thicker and the press and squeeze it more? (high fiber volume fractions = higher performance composite up to about a Vf of 70% which is ridiculously hard to obtain and create a good product even with some prepreg)

random guesses^

**robnow** · 10-12-2007, 09:12 AM

^^^^^^
I could see bumps above the curve or a flatter slope with sharper drops occuring from the reinforced mid section. But a bump dropping below the curve would mean that small part of the ski suddenly has less material.

I'm sure these tests only test maybe one pair of skis and there may be some kind of minor defect in that set of skis. Any normal ski would have either a smooth curve or a curve with some type of plateau or rises, but never a sudden drop.

I'm just talking out of my ass here and speculating.

**robnow** · 10-12-2007, 09:15 AM

Either way, this thread sucks because I was set on getting ANTs (for the twin) to go with 138s and now I want LPs/XXLs/192 Bros.

Arrrggghh!!!

**Chris Knight** · 10-12-2007, 10:14 AM

Nah, I still think that's a great plan.

My choice two ski alpine quiver if I had to have only two:
1) Gots/Districts/Sugars (99mm-105mm, half/full twin)
2) Lotus/Praxis (120mm-138mm, funshape)

**ChowdahRidah** · 10-12-2007, 10:15 AM

The 192 Bro sounds a lot like the Katana, although it sounds like they made the Bro considerably lighter??? Other than weight are these skis similar?

**ChowdahRidah** · 10-12-2007, 10:25 AM

From what I've read here about the Lotus (120) and the 192 Bro, I'd ride either one of those if the conditions are remotely soft. So I would want the second pair to be a little bit narrower (Explosive or LP) or even narrower to make sure I can rip groomers and even bumps when necessary and/or bored. I think my Explosivs do okay on hard snow but they are far from great, and I'd say the same and maybe a bit less for my Gotamas.

**Duker** · 10-12-2007, 01:13 PM

Me quiver this year will start out with a big round set of spatulas and be complimented by 184 Mantra's.... unless volkl is out of them.... then it will be a 185 bridge.

**ChowdahRidah** · 10-12-2007, 01:19 PM

My quiver will be the same as last year... Explosivs and Gotamas. I got both of them dialed in and both are made bomber. Next pair will be either the Katana or the DP 120 but not this season. I'm torn between the 2 and need more data. Although I doubt any ski will beat the reviews on the Lotus.

**Vitamin I** · 10-12-2007, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by robnow

...I always wonder how some skis get bumps in their curves...The builder would have to use different woods or other sudden material changes in that part of the ski...I don't imagine they do that...

Yes, they DO build with sudden material changes.

About the XXL graph blip in its forebody: If you fondle an XXL, you'll see a "shallow channel" or you could equivalently call it "raised reinforced edges". The width of the reinforced edge material changes somewhat abruptly right where the graph displays the blip. I guess the intention is to add a stiffness and weight blip to dampen the ski midway up the forebody (similar idea as old salomon "prolink", and k2 "mod").

Similarly, the graph blips sharply down for the tips and tails of Salomon Guns and Foils. Fondle the skis to see how the material gets thinner and thinner with discrete steps like a U-shaped staircase.

.

**Vitamin I** · 10-12-2007, 02:42 PM

Back to original topic...

Originally Posted by shasti

...I like squads...I could easily swap out squads if I think there's a reason...

Shasti, did you try Squads in various terrains/conditions and still like them? Do you like that stiffness in an "everyday" ski? If yes, then 138's and 189 Squads will be SICK for you at Squaw. The "short" 189 Squads sound burl enough for pursuing serious business, while still short enough to provide more agility for firm/tight/bumpy days.

If you've never actually skied the Squads, then tell us which skis you HAVE skied which you think are close to what you might want for Squaw every day.

Last year, all I wanted was to ski Squaw on Spats and 1st-gen 193 BigDaddys the whole time. Would have been nearly perfect plan, but then...very bad snow year: a 35-day dry stretch in January, and a 25-day dry stretch in March. On the firmest/tightest-bumpiest/rockiest days, I wanted something with more grip, more ease of agility, and more fun in very turny terrain than 193 BD's. On those days, BD's lured me to try straighter/faster turns that were not very safe with blind rocks everywhere. So I was happier to switch to my 190 Explosivs for those days.

Originally Posted by shasti

...What would you pair with 138s an why ?

1st-gen 193 BigDaddies again, my favorite, they rule in average or better snow years.

If 3rd pair allowed, I wish I had a ski like a 190 Explosive for 35-day dry stretches, but with a full twin for playing in the park.

If 4th pair allowed, something more serious than BD's, like 193 m103, 194 XXL, 194 Squad, but with bad snow year at Squaw, terrain was rarely smooth enough for taking these chargers up to their top speeds. BD's got the call most days.

.

**robnow** · 10-12-2007, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by Vitamin I

Yes, they DO build with sudden material changes.

About the XXL graph blip in its forebody: If you fondle an XXL, you'll see a "shallow channel" or you could equivalently call it "raised reinforced edges". The width of the reinforced edge material changes somewhat abruptly right where the graph displays the blip. I guess the intention is to add a stiffness and weight blip to dampen the ski midway up the forebody (similar idea as old salomon "prolink", and k2 "mod").

Similarly, the graph blips sharply down for the tips and tails of Salomon Guns and Foils. Fondle the skis to see how the material gets thinner and thinner with discrete steps like a U-shaped staircase.

.

Well yeah, I know about cutouts and spaceframes and all that. I'm talking about abrupt bumps that drop down below the majority of the curve of the ski where the ski is all of a sudden softer in a little section. Take a look at the curve for the Extrem Big Chief for example.

**Vitamin I** · 10-12-2007, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by robnow

Well yeah, I know about cutouts and spaceframes and all that. I'm talking about abrupt bumps that drop down below the majority of the curve of the ski where the ski is all of a sudden softer in a little section. Take a look at the curve for the Extrem Big Chief for example.

That Big Chief looks funky. Yeah, I'd guess that stiffness blip is merely an unintended effect of binding inserts. I wonder if the blip disappears with boot and binding connected.

.