Pontoon VS DPS/ARG/Praxis

**shasti** · 09-24-2007, 11:20 PM

I know there have been a lot of reviews on these skis. But I have yet to see a side by side comparison between them, or a post that compares the route that praxis, armada and dps chose (improving on/modifying the spat) VS the one Shane currently thinks is better (the toon).

Is there anyone who has skied, or knows a lot about, the toon who is also familiar with any of the (more) traditional reverse/reverse setups of the DPS, armada ARG or praxxis ? The softness and durability issues with the Pontoon discouraged me from considering it. But, if K2 were to stiffen her up and resolve the de-lams, is the big shovel the hot ticket ?

Just wondering if the Toon's dimensions are preferred by anyone over the other skis and if so why

**verbier61** · 09-25-2007, 01:44 AM

tried toons and lotus 138. The skiing position is way better (ie much more central) with lotuses, that are also made way better than toons.

**Yossarian** · 09-25-2007, 08:10 AM

isn't there a Celebrity Death Match thread between Spats and Pontoons?
funken maybe?

**Yossarian** · 09-25-2007, 08:12 AM

Here it is. Hope that helps. Read through, near the end they eventually start discussing the ARG, praxis, the Hellbent, etc.

If you like the general Spat shape, the PraXis or the ARG seem to be the latest progression of the idea. Similar, but with wider tips/tails, less reverse camber underfoot, etc.
If you like the general Pontoon shape, well, the Pontoon is still fairly unique. Big tip, big rocker, pintail.

If you like something kind of in between, like a hybrid, the new Lotus 138 and the Hellbent are each a different version of a mix.

The new 07/08 Lotus 138 is still more Spat like in shape, with the widest part of the ski further back towards the middle, but they've lowered the tail so it's more flat, less rocker.
And it still has a bit of sidecut right underfoot.

The Hellbent is a hybrid thing more like the Pontoon - it has Pontoon type tips, but regular sidecut, with just a bit of rocker in the tail.

Those two - the newest 138 and the Hellbent - seem to be the furthest "progressed" ideas in terms of generations of changes.

So far, the rumor mill says the Hellbents are kicking ass, and I'm sure the newest 138 will too.

**Jumper Bones** · 09-25-2007, 10:27 AM

If what everyone else out there says about supposed Pontoon durability was really true, mine would be completely delaminated and the edges fallen out and the skis bent in half.

However, they've held up just fine, and I'm really happy with them. I personally think the graphic is kinda meh, and I like the Hellbent graphic, and I'm interested in trying those out too. Their one limitation I've noticed is heavy, rutty, massively chopped-up snow - you get thrown around a lot, kind of beat up. If I could improve upon the Pontoon for me, I'd make it 10 cms longer, give it traditional sidewalls instead of cap, some stronger p-tex base material, and make it stiffer by a good bit.

But like I said, no durability issues of any kind for me, and I put about 20 days or more on mine last season.

**shasti** · 09-25-2007, 09:05 PM

Verb you're the only dude I've found with carnal knowledge of both man. What are your dimensions and how/where do you ski ? Also did you feel like the Pontoon performed as well in the super soft as the Lotus, but the Lotus killed the crud better ? that's the rap that I have been hearing.

I wonder if the uneasy balance point on the toon is due to the rocker COMBINED with the soft flex in the tip and tail of the ski. If you are going to rocker a ski AND make it soft it seems like you are setting yourself up with a ski thats tough to land on.

That is what I have been hearing Jumper. Glad you like them though, and gald they're holding up well. I am stoked to see if K2 chooses to stiffen them. I'd imagine it would make the ski more fun. Have you ever skied the spat or any of the other skis mentioned ?

And thanks for the link Yoss, I read that thread front to back and it was helpful but I'm still sort of waiting to see if the shape of the Toon is legit though. I know everybody likes the other skis a lot (pair of 138s on the way), but maybe these other skies have beaten the toons because

A) they're stiffer
B) they have been around for more than 1 season and thus are more dialed within their limitations or
C) they're not K2s

Maybe the toon will shine in the next few years if they dial them like Jumper says. Thats why I made the thread. Although I am sure the hellbent is fun, I dont imagine it has the same "stand on your downhill ski and rip across the fall line" feel that a reverse sidecut ski can in deep snow. I'd like to ski a pair tho.

**verbier61** · 09-26-2007, 01:23 AM

this is what I wrote about the toons before using the lotuses:
http://www.coreshot.com/index.php?op...d=89&Itemid=48

for the way I use them (I'm old, 180cm x78 kg and very lazy), lotuses are way better because (in no relevance order)
1) are much lighter. This is very relevant for flotation
2) blast way better into any sort of crud (carbon matters....)
3) naturally suggest a much more central skiing position (toons tails sink much more, not to mention the big shovels that want to go UP)
4) ski better on the groomed and on hard snow.....
maybe I'm missing something here but hey I've been missing snow for too much time....

**marshalolson** · 09-26-2007, 08:09 AM

i have only mounted toons, and was not impressed, but have seen several pairs that are beat to shit and have held up well... so i won;t comment further

buuut....

138's are basically a modified spatula for the ski to be a little more stable in open terrain, skin better, and be ALOT lighter.

praxxis are a true spat knockoff. though lighter and wider.

the ARGs are basically a 138 knockoff, just shorter.

the hellbents are a fatter maden'ak with a bunch of tip and tail rocker. and are very soft.

**Yossarian** · 09-26-2007, 08:19 AM

Evil E had been on Spats for 3 years and Toons for 1 year...he might also chime in.

I do think you're right shasti - if you're going to have a rockered ski, make it stiffer, not softer. Doesn't have to be unbendable, but if the ski tips/tails are already in some kind of planing position, you don't need a lot more flex.

For what little it's worth, I've skied the Spats and the Lotus, and far preferred the Lotus. I'm trying the Praxis this year, but what I really lust for is a pair of the newest gen 202cm 138s. The toons aren't for me, but I would like to check out the Hellbents, and I'd get even more interested in them if they stiffened them up a bit.

**Bandit Man** · 09-26-2007, 10:42 AM

I think Spindrift has time on Spats and 138's, although he got his 138's late in the season, so I'm not sure how much pow-pow they have seen.

138's seem money...but they cost a heck of a lot of money, too.

**fluffballs** · 09-26-2007, 01:02 PM

After 3 seasons on spats, the modifications are getting to the point of making me consider an upgrade. The main things I am looking to approve upon are weight and the ability to pressure the toe. The spats are pretty good for keeping a forward stance, but I can certainly sink the tip. This has me thinking praxis or 138. The toon has never really appealed to me, just too much tip, I can't see it busting crud like spats do.

Talking to Keith, I think the best thing he did to the praxis was to move the widest point forward in relation to the spat. The 138 also has this. The added length is also a huge plus in both.

I couldn't care less about hard pack performance, the spats are actually kinda fun on the way back to the lift.

I think I would buy the 138 if price weren't an issue, it's just such a beautiful ski, and the shape really interests me. And I am kicking myself for not jumping on the praxis pre-sale. Depending on what I do for work this winter I may be buying one of the two, or 'suffering' through another winter on my spats (which are still the best powder ski I've ever ridden).

**Roo** · 09-26-2007, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by fluffballs

I couldn't care less about hard pack performance, the spats are actually kinda fun on the way back to the lift.

THANK YOU! I thought I was going mad in enjoying ripping past people on the run to the lift on my Spats. Making pistes challenging again definitely has something to be said for it.

**JeffreyJim** · 09-26-2007, 02:01 PM

I'll chime in although I really only have experience on the Praxis.

I think they are all fun shapes, no matter what you'll notice a huDge improvement in the fun catagory. It's like taking a rally car out for a spin everytime you ski. I have fun everywhere on them, but am not to the point where I'm as confident on the Praxis in the gnar gnar as I am on my normal shaped skis UNLESS it's tight steep trees/heavier snow, then it's just plain cheating. I do think with time they'll get more use than any ski in my quiver. (or if I find a real indian shamen and they do a real snow dance for Jackson)

I for one am not so sure about making any reverse camber ski super stiff. I'm not saying it should be a total noodle (aka Pontoon) but I think a ski with some feel to it is desireable since these skis will all be in soft snow majority of the time. The Praxis are by no means stiff but sturdy enough to bash skied out pow unrattled and are torsionally solid.

What I really want to try out is the Rocker or EHP. I think a ski with a continous rocker from the front of the binding on out to the tip with a flat tail would be awesome because you'de still have something more stable to land on and something to pop off when you need to ollie (or jump...whatever) over something.

Oh...and I too have a blast on them on a groomer. Throw the skis sideways at 30 and loose maybe 1 or 2 MPH...it's fun.

**harpo-the-skier** · 09-26-2007, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Roo

THANK YOU! I thought I was going mad in enjoying ripping past people on the run to the lift on my Spats. Making pistes challenging again definitely has something to be said for it.

I read the reprint of the instruction manual that came with the Spats describing how to ski groomers with reverse sidecut/reverse camber skis. Can anyone add anything to that? I have a pair of Praxis that I will use for the first time this winter.

**fluffballs** · 09-26-2007, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by harpo-the-skier

I read the reprint of the instruction manual that came with the Spats describing how to ski groomers with reverse sidecut/reverse camber skis. Can anyone add anything to that? I have a pair of Praxis that I will use for the first time this winter.

Don't try to pressure the outside ski like on traditional shapes. If I'm going fast, I tend to just break the tails out and slide side to side. They are carveable, if you get on the tails or the tips, and put more pressure on the inside ski. Occasionally my downhill ski will still take off in the opposite direction, but that, and the floppy tips and tails are part of the fun.

**Big E** · 09-26-2007, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by harpo-the-skier

I read the reprint of the instruction manual that came with the Spats describing how to ski groomers with reverse sidecut/reverse camber skis. Can anyone add anything to that? I have a pair of Praxis that I will use for the first time this winter.

In short - it's not nearly as death-defying as some might lead you to believe. As long as you don't forget you're on Spats and try to make a normal carve turned.

**JeffreyJim** · 09-26-2007, 02:30 PM

I just make old school pivot turns. If you can ski bumps, you can ski these to the chair without any problems

**mr_gyptian** · 09-26-2007, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Jumper Bones

If what everyone else out there says about supposed Pontoon durability was really true, mine would be completely delaminated and the edges fallen out and the skis bent in half.

However, they've held up just fine, and I'm really happy with them. I personally think the graphic is kinda meh, and I like the Hellbent graphic, and I'm interested in trying those out too. Their one limitation I've noticed is heavy, rutty, massively chopped-up snow - you get thrown around a lot, kind of beat up. If I could improve upon the Pontoon for me, I'd make it 10 cms longer, give it traditional sidewalls instead of cap, some stronger p-tex base material, and make it stiffer by a good bit.

But like I said, no durability issues of any kind for me, and I put about 20 days or more on mine last season.

a buddy in vail put at least 60 days on the pontoons last season and didn't experience any durability issues.

for as much tip flap/vibration as those have in normal ski conditions I was surprised to say the least.

**shasti** · 09-26-2007, 07:29 PM

Thanks all for the input. I dont get sick of learning about new ski shapes that help to rip pow. We've been exploring how to use our edges since skiing was created, but only recently started experimenting with using the base to make your turn. I'd say ski manufacturing has come a long way. Anybody who has skied one or more of these skis is welcome to put their .2 into this thred.

Yeah I think stiffer is a bit better Yoss. When you cross tracks, or pow starts to become bumps, there's nothin like a nice long stiff peice of wood to get you through the day........ yeah.

But, maybe the type of sno that you ski can play a part. Rob (westcoast DPS rep) told me to go with 3 flex because I live in tahoe. He said that as he skies much lighter snow most of the time (lives in CO) and is a bit smaller than me, he likes the 2 flex. JefferyJim and some others seem to be of the opinion that a soft ski is preferable in pow. I would tend to agree when the ski has regular camber, but I dont know if the same rules apply when a ski is reverse cambered. I wonder if a soft ski, with regular camber, is fun in powder because this results in the ski flexing more, and thus obtaining a reverse cambered position which allows the tails to slide out more and tips to dive less. When a ski already has a reverse cambered line, this flexing is unecessary as these things occur on their own. I know a ton of people who like the Sanouk and Made N in powder, and I would tend to believe it is for these reasons.

Regardless of this concept, I, knowing that pow to often turns to crud and still wanting to ski crud fast, have gone stiff....but like, not in a gay way

**The Dad** · 09-26-2007, 07:56 PM

As someone who enjoys torque steer (and an owner of four Saabs), I figure I'll get a kick out of skiing my Praxii on groomers.

**Vitamin I** · 09-27-2007, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by harpo-the-skier

...the instruction manual that came with the Spats describing how to ski groomers with reverse sidecut/reverse camber skis. Can anyone add anything to that? I have a pair of Praxis...

For groomers/firm:

1. Choose bindings with high torsional rigidity to control those faraway edges on uberfat skis.

2. Just go for it, ski fast all the time on groomers and you'll get the feel. While getting the feel, be ready to recover when one of your skis unexpectedly shoots outwards to the side, then pay attention to what felt wrong about that and you'll learn naturally to eliminate that situation. If you're worried about just going for it, then get familiar first by skating around the flats at the bottom to feel how the edges can track weird sometimes.

3. They can be fun on firm off-piste, but they can hurt. After skiing hard all day with rigid bindings and stiff boots on uberfat reverse camber skis, if the snow is too firm and bumpy, your ankles might start to get torqued in pain from the uberwide edges, and/or your knees might start to get pounded from all the base impact directly underfoot with such a short footprint on firm snow. Your pain might help you define for yourself what kind of days are "too firm" for your uberfat reverse camber skis.

.

**El Chupacabra** · 09-27-2007, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Vitamin I

1. Choose bindings with high torsional rigidity to control those faraway edges on uberfat skis.

Any suggestions? I had Salomon 997 Equipes on my Spatulas; they seemed okay. I think the Salomon binding footprint (screw spacing) is a little bit wider than the Look Pivot footprint.

I sold the Spatulas in favor of 195 Praxis, soon to arrive (hopefully). Binding options I have for the Praxis: (1) Salomon 997, (2) Look Pivot, or (3) Tyrolia FF17. If I can get the brake width sorted out for the Tyrolia, I think I'll try those; looks like a nice sturdy binding; screw footprint looks about the same as Salomon, but without the toe wing adjustment hassle.

Originally Posted by Vitamin I

3. They can be fun on firm off-piste, but they can hurt. After skiing hard all day with rigid bindings and stiff boots on uberfat reverse camber skis, if the snow is too firm and bumpy, your ankles might start to get torqued in pain from the uberwide edges, and/or your knees might start to get pounded from all the base impact directly underfoot with such a short footprint on firm snow. Your pain might help you define for yourself what kind of days are "too firm" for your uberfat reverse camber skis.

I really noticed this on my Spatulas. Without any camber to the ski, your boot just slams down onto anything underneath. Knees start to hurt by the end of the day when it's tracked/ bumpy in spots.

**The Dad** · 09-27-2007, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by El Chupacabra

I sold the Spatulas in favor of 195 Praxis, soon to arrive (hopefully). Binding options I have for the Praxis: (1) Salomon 997, (2) Look Pivot, or (3) Tyrolia FF17. If I can get the brake width sorted out for the Tyrolia, I think I'll try those; looks like a nice sturdy binding; screw footprint looks about the same as Salomon, but without the toe wing adjustment hassle.

I'm making a similar choice for my 195 Praxii, minus the 997s. Between the FF17 and Mojo 15, though, I'm thinking the Mojo, because it's slightly lighter and I'm not sure how the FreeFlex doohickey will work with a reverse camber ski. Based on a fairly careful hand inspection, I have high hopes for bending the brakes to fit.

**lph** · 09-27-2007, 11:17 AM

I have lots of days on both Toons and Spats:

The toons are unbelievable in untracked pow and tracked, light pow. They also allow you to make somewhat normal turns and you can actually carve on groomers on your way to the lift. They traverse on cat walks very well (whereas the spats are slow and heavy and require alot of work on the flats). The tip won't dive, ever. They don't slide turns nearly as well as the spats. The big downside to the Toons are those days that start as pow and turn quickly to cut up, packed down snow (ie weekends). They blow in these conditions. The huge tip gets knocked around, you can't just let them run and your legs tend to get tired really quick. Not to mention, I have experienced as have others, ridiculous amounts of shin bang during these conditions.

On paper, it would seem that the toons are more versatile than the spats. But, in the real world they just aren't. Once you get used to the spats you can ski them in most any condition and still have fun. I didn't find that to be the case with the Toons.

IMVHO, I can only recommend the Toon as a pure powder ski. If you are skiing inbounds on a crowded powder day, you better have a second pair of skis for the afternoon.

I think I need to pick up a pair of the Praxis 195. Shoulda pre-ordered.

**Evil E** · 09-27-2007, 01:25 PM

i have the 189 pontoons and theyre a ton of fun in the right conditions and terrain.

If you do a lot of trees and tight areas you better be real big or real strong to ski the 189 all the time. That tip is BIG.

Im 5'10 180 and consider myself a strong skier and in tight spots the massive toon tip can be a bitch. The spats are the the winning design in the tight/trees areas because you can easily pivot and pilot the ski anywhere anytime with little effort.

If you ski fast in wide open areas the pontoons are fun as hell. The surface area floats you high up and you can GS the crap out of them. Strangely my favorite place to ski the pontoons so far has been at Loveland where I can point them and let em go. The toon is better on groomers than spats, I like the way you can ski them on newly groomed back to the chair. (I never had a problem with spats on groomed, but the toons make it more enjoyable.) They also glide better on flats because the toons are not reverse camber, they are rockered tips and tails with a big flat section underfoot.

However, because you dont have a true reverse cambered ski on the toons i feel you do lose a bit of that surfy feel in pow. Also because you now have this massive tip up front you also lose a bit of quickness in really heavy snow, mank, or suncrust. In deep shitty snow conditions the spat design still wins.

My suggestions for K2 ... (Id be curious if anyone skied a proto like this prior to pontoon's release)
Take the tip DOWN a bit. Taper that thing off. Id like to see 140-150-130-120. The biggest part of the ski doesnt have to be the tip. Id like them to smooth out the ski underfoot so that the ski is fully reverse cambered. More like a progressive negative cambered ski. Also the construction could be beefed up a bit, but I ski very fast and Im mean to my skis and i havent broken mine yet so i cant complain much.

Ive been thinking lately that I might benefit from the 179 pontoon over the 189 because of the girth of the ski is so huge ( I still have trouble dropping below 185 for my ski size)

I have a pair of 185 praxis on order and Im anxious to see how they stack up to 'toons and spats. who knows... I might just sack up to the 195 prax or a 202 dps lotus someday.

All in all, all these new shapes are killer toys for powder, windbuffed, and mank. they all just have different specialties and strengths and weaknesses.

You really cant go wrong. any arg, spat, toon, prax, dps, or hellbent is going to put a big fucking smile on your face on a deep day. (even on just soft snow days these skis are a lot of fun) I honestly think that every skier who dismisses these skis without trying them is missing out. Some skiers will figure it out the new designs on the first run, others will get it to click in a week, but when you finally dial it in you get hooked.

Its a great time to be a skier