Question for Gary Fisher riders

**Duffstuff** · 07-20-2007, 10:32 PM

I'm old (early 30s). Been mtb-ing since the 80s when full ridged with bar ends, toe clips, Suntour Biopace, and purple or teal anodized aluminum was all the rage. I used to race (I sucked), and I've had a few bikes since then. Lately, I've been riding a gary fisher paragon hardtail i picked up a couple of years ago on a killer sale when I was a broke grad student.

I'm finding more and more that the bike seems harder and harder to handle on singletrack, especially when descending. The bike either wants to go straight, or when leaning into a turn, it kind of reachs a tipping point and leans over really fast and/or washes out the front tire. To the point that I now descend like a total wuss for fear of crashing. Its hard to change direction and make smooth carvy turns.

I dont remember it being this bad the last couple years. Tire pressure in the mids 30s. Either its the genesis geometry, or I'm turning into a weak lazy old bastard and have forgotten how to ride a bike.

Road a newer specialized FS recently. Like driving a Ferrari, vs. my bike which now seems like a truck.

Any thoughts? Anyone else have these issues?

(Pros - the bike climbs like a bulldozer, is light, and is really fast on smoother open trails)

**Dickeymotto** · 07-21-2007, 01:00 AM

Specialized owns Gary Fisher hands down. FSR is the only fully active and fully independent suspension system on the market. What bike did you test?

Squatch · 07-21-2007, 01:16 AM

IMHO, Fishers tend to not be designed for the riding that prevails on the TGR crowd. The Genesis geo is pretty good for climbing, however the long TT can screw people up by stretching them too far out.

Personally, I prefer the geo on the spec bikes. The tendency has been to go towards a more upright, slacker bike design, especially as bikes get lighter and stronger, and can ride for the descent and still be able to ride all day. I think GF is somewhat behind the times on this; there has been a HT focus to them for a long time that is only starting to give way to FS bikes. Their geometries reflect this XC way of thinking.

FWIW, I like their long TTs, but I am not normally sized. I could see riding one of their 29er HTs, but it wouldn't be my everyday ride. I have an 06 Enduro for that--I think the geo and design suits my preferences much more (normal-length TT, freeridey fit)--it may be overkill for much of the front range, but it climbs fine and I'd rather enjoy the crutch that a 6/6 bike provides.

**Dickeymotto** · 07-21-2007, 01:38 AM

Still the biggest thing that sets a Specialized apart is the suspension design. The four bar Horst-Link design blows a single pivot out of the water.

**mntlion** · 07-21-2007, 08:43 AM

try a few more full sus bikes and see what the differences are between them.

also on your bike try a different (shorter) stem

on FS bikes, in general, more links = more plush, better braking and more weight and more time fixing pivot bearings

**Arty50** · 07-21-2007, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Duffstuff

I'm old (early 30s).

Thanks for making me feel old.

My first mountain bike was a Sugar, and I demo'd a Cake when my Sugar got stolen. Finally I settle on a 5 Spot and I've never looked back. I liked my Sugar when I had it, but now I realize how crappy it was. Forgetting about the horrible drivetrain issues on that bike, it climbed fairly well. But on the descents it was just ok. And the Cake has a really high bottom bracket. I felt like I was riding on stilts. After both of those experiences, I just don't feel like their bikes are all that great.

Trek bought Fisher several years ago and it seems as though they're just living on the reputation Fisher had back then for making great hardtails. To make an analogy, GF is like the Oldsmobile of bikes. It was once a great, proud company that pushed the limits; but now it's just a neglected side brand of a large conglomerate.

**davep** · 07-22-2007, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Duffstuff

I'm finding more and more that the bike seems harder and harder to handle on singletrack, especially when descending. The bike either wants to go straight, or when leaning into a turn, it kind of reachs a tipping point and leans over really fast and/or washes out the front tire. To the point that I now descend like a total wuss for fear of crashing. Its hard to change direction and make smooth carvy turns.

Don't forget to check the stupid stuff - are your headset/hubs/etc still smooth & tight? I noticed my old POS commuter was riding terribly a few weeks ago, turns out the headset had come loose and the bearings were screwed.

**Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo** · 07-22-2007, 04:04 PM

I'd say Squatch is right on, IMHO. I have a Sugar 292 from the first or second year they came out. I like it ok but I'm all long and lanky, although not as bad as Squatch, and most of my riding is XC rides. For that type of riding the geometry and 29in wheels just feel better to me and my body shape, especially on long all day xc rides. But I would never want it as a freeride bike, and even compared to newer 29in bikes it isn't so hot. Test a bunch of bikes and find what fits and feels good for your type of riding.

**Duffstuff** · 07-22-2007, 10:14 PM

I'm also tall and lanky, and the bike fits me very well. I'm anal about maintenance, and everything is in good shape. I'll probably just suck it up for a while and choose my rides wisely. I'm more of an XC geek than a freeride type. Anyway, thanks for the input.

Squatch · 07-22-2007, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by Duffstuff

I'm also tall and lanky, and the bike fits me very well. I'm anal about maintenance, and everything is in good shape. I'll probably just suck it up for a while and choose my rides wisely. I'm more of an XC geek than a freeride type. Anyway, thanks for the input.

I don't think your "tall and lanky" beats my "tall and lanky." FWIW I'm 6'9" and ride a bike with a 25.2 TT and a 105 stem (higher seat lengthens that a bit, too). It is definitely biased for descents, though, vs. GF's biased for ascents.

**Spats** · 07-23-2007, 01:47 AM

Everyone has completely missed the point so far.

The problem is easy: you aren't putting enough weight on the front end. That will make the front wander and you'll wash out in turns.

"Genesis geometry" generally means a longer top tube and shorter stem. This means less weight on the front wheel. To make up for it, you have to be really aggressive with your body positioning on descents. Get your elbows up, your torso low and forward, and put some weight on the handlebars. You can even do the moto thing on downhill switchbacks and put your inside foot out and forward. This will give the front wheel some traction and you'll be able to carve turns.

It may be that your frame is too large, but I can't possibly tell without a good side view shot of you on the bike.

Originally Posted by Dickeymotto

Specialized owns Gary Fisher hands down. FSR is the only fully active and fully independent suspension system on the market. What bike did you test?

Nice regurgitation of Specialized's marketing spew. Unfortunately it's 100% counterfactual bullshit. All FSR bikes reduce to a low single pivot with a semi-floating brake. They generally ride well, but that's because they're well designed, not because FSR has magical properties.

**Bunion 2020** · 07-23-2007, 07:53 AM

FWIW,
When I was getting in to MTBing Fisher was the shit. The original Mt Tam was a beautiful fillet brazed farme that was a near work of art.

I had the chance to meet and ride with Gary at the first Fat Tire Festival in Moab, a nice guy.

I rode Fishers from around 1987 until 2000. I had a Montare, great bike I won the sport division of the first Norba National at Deer Valley in 1989 on that bike.

I then upgraded to a CR-7, another great bike but the fasteners that held the rear triangle on to the front triangle kept breaking, Fisher discontinued the model so they warranted me a Paragon. That frame still is in my shop, I ride it now and then but since I bought my EW it is a town bike.

The Paragon never "fit", the front end seemed like it always wanted to track across the hill on steep climbs and wandered. On downhills it was also a chore. That could have been due to the front shock (RS Mag 21 SL) that was a noodly POS.

These days I see GF bikes as just another same old brand, like Giant.

So it goes.

**Shredhead** · 07-23-2007, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Duffstuff

I'm finding more and more that the bike seems harder and harder to handle on singletrack, especially when descending.

I dont remember it being this bad the last couple years.

Is this a 29r paragon? What are you using for tires?

I am currently riding a GF Rig which is the same frame as the 29r Paragon. While not the best geometry for tight twisty technical trails, it descends pretty well.
If you haven't already, replace the Jones ACXs with some Nevegals or Rampages.

O yeah, I am older than dirt and I had to make my first MTB from an old Shwinn Excelsior frame.

**Duffstuff** · 07-24-2007, 08:36 AM

Spats - thats a good point. I may need to brush up on my technique a bit; could be getting lazy.

Squatch, I'm a mere 6'1" - you've got me there.

I wonder if wider bars would help too? I had cut mine down about 1/2 inch off each side, XC geek style. Maybe a shorter stem and some XC style riser bars? I notice all the kids these days are riding with wider bars. Thanks for the input.