Hybrid or Diesel

[grrrr]

Originally posted by DJSapp
grrr-- The amount of energy put into water does not equal the energy you recover from hydrogen. I can't find my source right now, but I believe it's closer to 75%.

I was specifically referring to the efficiency of the chemical process. The amount of energy it takes to seperate hydrogen from water is the same as the energy released when it burns. Yes, there is inefficiency in the fuel cell, just as in any other process, where fuel is lost to the environment, or converted to waste heat, etc.

Overall, the concept is still among the best out there. The real concern is still the energy going into the hydrogen production. Obviously, the sooner we can move toward solar or wind electric powered seperation plants, the sooner we move toward a 100% clean transportation system. In the meantime, coal, hydroelectric and nuclear all have major drawbacks.

[DougW]

Now how much fryer oil is left over? Won't it make sense to tap an even bigger source of free energy that will probably never be used. Fat people! Just have a large scale fat sucking operation at all McDonalds. Just have the fat people sit in chairs that sucks the fat out of them and send it to the Fat Station next door where it is processed and available at the pumps. "I'll take 20 gal of hi test fat chick please"

[grrrr]

Originally posted by Beaver
I saw a post on a diesel forum where a guy was running used fryer oil in his F350.

So the new bumper stickers will read "Eat McDonalds and be green"?

[Beaver]

I wonder if it smelled like fries behind his truck.

[lemon boy]

I think it is eat McDonalds and be soylent green

[Snow Dog]

Originally posted by DJSapp
Snowdog, the fact that hydrogen isn't an energy source is the exact reason why it will be sucessful. Plans for hydrogen pipeline and distribution networks are already being thought up. It IS more efficient than batteries due to HIGHER energy recovery rate (up to 70% with superhigh temp fuel cells, 30-40% with temp operating range ok for vehicles) and easier than oil since a local hydrogen supply can be built anywhere there is water (i.e. hydrogen factories). No more war over energy. No 2-8 hour recharges for 45 minutes of driving. Everything we love about gas with less pollution and without war.

grrr-- The amount of energy put into water does not equal the energy you recover from hydrogen. I can't find my source right now, but I believe it's closer to 75%. There are problems and inefficiencies with the recovery in the reaction chamber. Also, fuel cell vehicles are fully electric vehicles. No internal combustion engine at all. Just the fuel cell as an electricity supply. ICE's are limited due to the Carnot efficiency (take a thermodynamics class, I'm not going to explain) and at best can get around 50% of energy back.

DougW-- Running the plants at peak 24/7 is exactly right. The best efficiency, all the time.

And for the last time everyone please eradicate bio-diesel from your thought process. If you want to save the environment, run your car off of a coal fired engine. IT WILL BE CLEANER THAN RUNNING OFF OF BIO DIESEL. American farming practices are so fucking destructive to the soil, water and air, and everyone looks over it when they say "Hey, all this corn can run my car? And it's a little cleaner than normal diesel? Awesome!" The politics of American farming are equally as bad as the pollution they put out. Corn is a nightmare.

I've spent way too long taking energy classes and doing research to even listen to ignorant people sing the 'praises' of bio-diesel.

The whole idea of hydrogen fuel cells is way cool but I still think it's overrated. They've had "hydrogen fuel cell" busss in my neighbourhood (Vancouver) for 10-15 years. In reality it uses natural gas and refactors it into hydrogen for the fuel cell. I found this report (because everything you read on the Internet is true) about the efficiencies of some technologies from the European Fuel Cell Forum.
In summary:
The power plant to wheel efficiency of a fuel cell vehicle operates on compressed gaseous hydrogen is 22%.

The power plant to wheel efficiency of a fuel cell vehicle operates on liquid hydrogen is 17%.

The power plant to wheel efficiency of an advanced Diesel is 25%.

The power plant to wheel efficiency of a hybrid solid oxide fuel cell-Dielsel is 33%.

The power plant to wheel efficiency of an electric vehicle is 66%.

Electric commuter car for those who work and Diesel for road trips. Plus bio-Diesel smells like popcorn (really).

[char]

Originally posted by dipstik

these cars produce less polluction, but not that much less. A regular gas guzzling honda civic puts out 7,000 pounds of carbon dioxide for every 12,500 miles it drives. The hybrid honda civic puts out 5,000. Say you only drive 12,500 miles a year, and say both cars have an expected life of 10 years. After these 10 years, the regular car will have put out 70,000 pounds of carbon dioxcide, and the hyrbid will have put out 50,000. Sure it's a lot less, but like I said before, not that much less.

You are not educated enough on this topic to say that 20,000 lbs of CO2 is not significant. Just a hint 20,000 pounds of CO2 x number of cars in the world = ?

Good job comparing one car to thousands of plane trips a day. I really got a laugh out of that one.

[char]

Well, after reading all of this thread, I'm just going to quote Buster.

Originally posted by Buster Highmen
The magnions should offer a "hot air" powered car.