Hybrid or Diesel

**mr_gyptian** · 03-23-2004, 09:48 AM

Ford is coming out with an Escape Hybrid late this summer. I think both hybrid and electric vehicles are completely worthless concepts. with the notable exception that Larry David drives one.

My question is would you rather have a 190 lb/ft torque/ 200 hp hybrid engine in an SUV. Averaging around 35 mpg.

OR

A Diesel with 430 lb/ft of torque and 250 hp that gets around 22-25 mpg in something like a Tahoe, Expedition, Rover??? A Freelander would get close to 30 mpg with the same 2.7L diesel engine.

Discuss.

**trainnvain** · 03-23-2004, 09:52 AM

Wow, it's not just an avatar after all.

**up an down** · 03-23-2004, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by trainnvain
Wow, it's not just an avatar after all.

**powderhound** · 03-23-2004, 10:04 AM

wait til this turbo diesel comes out

**Snow Dog** · 03-23-2004, 10:04 AM

I'd rather have a Jeep Liberty diesel. Availabel in limited quatities this year. I'd never buy a hybrid.

**Big E** · 03-23-2004, 10:05 AM

What are you going to be using it for? If you ever plan on towing, it's a no-brainer for the diesel. How long are you going to keep it? Expect that diesel to last much longer with way lower repair costs (at least on the engine) over the long haul. Do you care that you may have to drive out of your way to get diesel fuel (or at least, at a decent price), or that the diesel will be rougher and smellier, and around town slower? Driving-experience-wise, you could not pick any more disparate vehicles. Diesels will be slow off the line, make a lot of noise, and in those vehicles will feel very much like a big truck. The hybrid will make 0 noise sitting at a stoplight, has all of its torque available instantly, and will be ultra-efficient if you spend a lot of time sitting in traffic.

I like both ways, but they are definitely not gunning for the same audience. Hybrid's will continue to make inroads in the market, especially if gas goes to $2 or $3 / gallon (electric vehicles, otoh, ain't gonna happen unless they make huge strides in batteries). Only thing that concerns me about hybrids, right now, is the newness of the technology. Few more years, though, and I'm sure Honda and Toyota will have all the bugs worked out. Another decade or so, the US companies will

FYI, I worked on a hybrid car in college, and now own a Dodge 2500 w/ the Cummins diesel.

**powderhound** · 03-23-2004, 10:15 AM

so the right thing for the environment and buy a hybrid. Too many people are buying oversized SUVs. Do they need to cross a couple rivers, climb up a side of a canyon and over two mountains to get to the grocery store? I doubt you need a towing vehicle if you're looking at hybrids, if so look away. Just get a Subaru, I've had a few SUVs and they BLOW.

**schuss** · 03-23-2004, 10:19 AM

electric motors rock, Hybrids are a great concept and solution for those who don't want to deal with charging or limited range. I used to be on a solar car team, and we got to test out the production EV-RAV4's, and those thing could smoke the tires easily, due to the torque available at 0 RPM. Electric is badass, most people are just too dumb to realize it.

**Beaver** · 03-23-2004, 10:20 AM

My answer before owning/driving a diesel - Hybrid

My answer now - Diesel (a breat big fucker that smokes like a bastard and goes like hell to keep th ricers in line)

Nothing like starting off a light in third gear with a ricer with his windows down and stereo pumping beside your exhaust. Heh!

**The AD** · 03-23-2004, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
Ford is coming out with an Escape Hybrid late this summer. I think both hybrid and electric vehicles are completely worthless concepts.

How so? Maybe for what you would want to use a vehicle for, but they sure aren't useless as a commuter vehicle for people that do the bulk of their driving in the city. Hybrids get excellent mileage in city driving and have plenty of power for this application.

**Viva** · 03-23-2004, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
Ford is coming out with an Escape Hybrid late this summer. I think both hybrid and electric vehicles are completely worthless concepts.

I think that the foRd Motor Company is a completely worthless concept.

Edit: And having recently gotten rid of an SUV (4Runner), I wouldn't want one again, period. The 78 Bronco doesn't count- that was a truck.

I am now back in a small truck with a 4 cyl engine that has about 160 hp and 190 ft-lbs of torque. It's all I need. Unlike foRd, toyota gears their work vehicles appropriately such that they can accomplish more with less.

If I could afford a second car, yeah, I'd look into obtaining a hybrid or electric

**bad_roo** · 03-23-2004, 10:49 AM

Unless you do virtually all of your motoring in urban stop/start traffic hybrids rarely work out cost effective versus a good diesel. I ran a Toyota Prius and a Volkswagen Lupo TDI and the VW returned far better overall fuel consumption figures.

The problem you face in the US is that you get so few good diesel engined trucks/cars. Over here in the UK diesel is almost a no-brainer. Brownmonkey ran a Freelander 1.8 petrol and that thing was so underpowered it used to return worse fuel figures than a 3.0-litre Nissan QX. He traded it in for a 2.0Td4 diesel (BMW engine) and that thing gets a good 37mpg with 260lb/ft of torque available.

**grrrr** · 03-23-2004, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
I think both hybrid and electric vehicles are completely worthless concepts.

If you were to say that a hybrid does not fit your needs, you might be correct, but as is, you have proven once again to be a complete moron.

Where I live, the speed limit is 45mph, gasoline is pushing $2.50 and the farthest you can drive is 25 miles. Hybrids make a lot of sense here, with 50 to 70 mpg.

A friend of mine just drove his hybrid from Maine to Washington. Four tankfulls. 40 gallons of gas.

Would I rather have a:

Escape - no
Tahoe -no
Expedition - hell no
Rover - no

I'm planning to sell my PU and downsize dramatically. I don't care to contribute any more to the problems of this world.

**Skidawg** · 03-23-2004, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
Ford is coming out with an Escape Hybrid late this summer. I think both hybrid and electric vehicles are completely worthless concepts. with the notable exception that Larry David drives one.

Yeah, I want you to elaborate on this statement.

The Escape Hybrid is a great idea. People seem to think they need to drive around a studio apartment sized vehicle for some reason, and this is a compromise of both efficency and the SUV fad.

The hybrid designs will keep getting more efficent as time goes on, and we may even move vehicles into powering by even different means like fuel and hydrogen cells. The speed at which we reach these goals is mostly dependent on oil prices.

**powderhound** · 03-23-2004, 10:52 AM

the problem in the US is are gas is so cheap people don't mind driving a vehicle that gets less than 20mpg

**bad_roo** · 03-23-2004, 10:52 AM

And now for a proper diesel engined vehicle...

Torque is a concept many motoring enthusiasts discuss but few understand. Ask the next bar room expert to define the difference between torque and power and you’ll usually be greeted by a stumbling mix of hearsay and GCSE physics. If you need to understand what torque is all about, forget the formulae and get behind the wheel of a Volkswagen Touareg TDI.

Two versions of Touareg diesel exist. The first uses a five-cylinder 2.5-litre turbodiesel engine, the other one bolts two of these engines together to form a V10 cylinder 5.0-litre powerplant of quite stupendous pulling power. Mind you, you’ll be expected to pay almost twice the price for the privilege. The 172bhp 2.5TDI retails at £29,065 and the 313bhp V10 TDI opens at £50,570 although a determined bit of haggling may see some movement on the latter figure. Both the TDI powerplants comply with Euro3 emissions regulations and feature Volkswagen’s Pump-Duse unit injector system.

Given that the 2.5-litre engine is effectively half the 5.0-litre unit, most of the basic technology is the same. Neither engine offers the common-rail architecture many manufacturers crow about, but given the results Volkswagen have achieved, you won’t feel hard done by. Sales figures show the 2.5-litre TDI to be the most popular model in the entire Touareg line up and it returns some excellent figures. Although it’s not quite got the mumbo of a 3.0-litre BMW X5 diesel, it’s a good deal cheaper and feels a more modern package. It will accelerate to 60mph in 12.2 seconds and run on to a top speed of 114mph on the standard steel spring suspension. Plump for the optional air suspension and top speed falls to 111mph. A combined fuel economy figure of 28.8mpg is fair return for such a huge vehicle.

It was the V10 diesel engine that made headlines when the car was first launched however. No - scrub that - perhaps this diesel should be called The Diesel Engine. It’s a monster. This 313bhp 5.0-litre V10 TDI turbodiesel generates 542lb/ft of torque. What does that mean in the real world? A turbodiesel Range Rover develops 288lb/ft, whilst a diesel BMW X5 manages 302. Pitiful! Lamborghini Murcielago – a limp wristed 480lb/ft. A Ferrari Enzo hawks up 484lb/ft. The Touareg V10 TDI is a true leviathan amongst cars.

Unveiled at the 2002 Paris Show, the Touareg’s basic shape wasn’t too much of a surprise as much of the engineering had been developed in partnership with Porsche and their Cayenne had been scooped long before. Whereas the Cayenne’s styling is, to put it most kindly, challenging, the Touareg wears its metal rather more purposefully, although much of the basic shape is similar. The philosophy behind the Touareg was to offer three vehicles in one, with an eye on the lucrative US market. In a category dominated by the Mercedes M-class, the BMW X5 and the Range Rover, the Touareg needed to be something special. Volkswagen boss Bernd Pischetsrieder reckons it is. “Unlike these rivals, it’s a proper off-roader: it eclipses the X5 on road and on top of it all it is a spacious luxury car” he purrs, obviously rather happy with his brawny creation. Longer term plans for the Touareg include a six-litre V10 diesel.

So much for the corporate ambition, what’s the car like? In a word, big. At 170cm high, it’s not lacking in road presence. The range-topping £51,570 V10 TDI sits a couple of centimetres higher still on its air suspension, the other models relying on more conventional steel springs. Unless, that is, you want to hit the options list. The interior styling is pleasantly restrained, the materials quality is class leading and the look and feel is much like the opulent Phaeton. Standard equipment includes electronic climate control, a multifunction computer, a ten-speaker CD system, walnut trim, heated and folding door mirrors and a huge airbag count. The 2.5 TDI model wears a slightly overwhelmed set of 17-inch alloy wheels. The V10 TDI is where things again go off the chart. This adds Continuous Damping Control Air Suspension, bi-Xenon lights, remote engine start, memory for your seat belt height, steering column, mirrors and seats and a stereo system with no fewer than eleven speakers. It can be recognised from the outside by its 18-inch wheels, a chrome air intake, front fog lights and the badge on the back.

On the road, the Touareg can’t quite back up Pischetsrieder’s claim as better than an X5. It comes close and is a little tauter than a Range Rover and a whole lot keener than a Mercedes M-class. The Volkswagen has slightly more lateral roll in corners and there’s that bit more side to side ‘wobbly head syndrome’ that BMW has worked so hard to exorcise. Still, the V10 TDI is monstrously muscular, despatching the sprint to 60mph in 7.6 seconds yet will return an average of 23mpg – a decent return for a car that tips the scales at around 2,500kg. It’s off road that the Touareg plays its trump card, especially when equipped with air suspension. Permanent four wheel drive and a low ratio gearbox are taken for granted, but factor in selectable front and rear differential locks, hill start and descent assist and very short front and rear overhangs and the Touareg becomes an awesomely capable tool. With low range engaged, the Touareg can drag itself up a 45-degree slope with 35 degrees of sideways lean. The V10’s torque is always a bonus, but the light weight of the five-cylinder TDI engine makes it particular nimble on downhill stretches.

Touareg diesels represent respectively the most popular and most powerful models in the line up and given the choice available, it seems an act of reckless folly to plump for a petrol model over this brace of oil burners. Oh, and in case you were wondering, torque is defined as a measure of how much a force acting on an object causes that object to rotate (or Force x Moment Arm). One suspects you’ll find the concept of a Touareg TDI a good deal easier to understand.

**irul&ublo** · 03-23-2004, 10:54 AM

The other problem is that US diesel fuel is not the same as Euro fuel...it has more sulfur and has very high particulate emissions.

**powderhound** · 03-23-2004, 10:55 AM

and the hole in the ozone gets bigger and snowfall gets less

**Greydon Clark** · 03-23-2004, 10:56 AM

Diesel. You can righteously apply a "Bio-Diesel: No War Needed" bumper sticker to your vehicle.

I drive a VW Golf TDI and get 50 MPG. The car has a reasonable amount of power.

**Viva** · 03-23-2004, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by bad_roo

Torque is a concept many motoring enthusiasts discuss but few understand.

Come on baby let's do the twist
Come on baby let's do the twist
Take me by my little hand and go like this
Ee-oh twist baby baby twist
Oooh-yeah just like this
Come on little miss and do the twist

**mr_gyptian** · 03-23-2004, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by Viva
I think that the foRd Motor Company is a completely worthless concept.

Edit: And having recently gotten rid of an SUV (4Runner), I wouldn't want one again, period. The 78 Bronco doesn't count- that was a truck.

I am now back in a small truck with a 4 cyl engine that has about 160 hp and 190 ft-lbs of torque. It's all I need. Unlike foRd, toyota gears their work vehicles appropriately such that they can accomplish more with less.

If I could afford a second car, yeah, I'd look into obtaining a hybrid or electric

yeah, that whole assembly line thing. First car. building of planes for WWII. Employing in excess of 100,000 people. completely worthless.

Careful with the bunson professer Frink.

**lemon boy** · 03-23-2004, 11:15 AM

Diesel all the way. Long proven tech. Good power. Easy availability (really once you're used to looking for it, it is plentifully available). Get em serviced anywhere.

The thing I just don't get about a hybrid is they really don't get that great a mileage.

In the early 90s Honda made the CRX HF model which was a gasser that got 59+ mpg on the highway. That's a reasonably high bar and one I haven't seen the hybrids clear yet really (prius is what like 36?).

Plus, there is nothing quite so satsifying as blowing a long plume of coal black smoke as you blast up hills

**Beaver** · 03-23-2004, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by bad_roo
And now for a proper diesel engined vehicle...

Torque is a concept many motoring enthusiasts discuss but few understand. Ask the next bar room expert to define the difference between torque and power and you’ll usually be greeted by a stumbling mix of hearsay and GCSE physics. If you need to understand what torque is all about, forget the formulae and get behind the wheel of a Volkswagen Touareg TDI.

Bla bla bla

I though you were going to explain to all us morons what tourque was all about.

**mrw** · 03-23-2004, 11:17 AM

Last year, I bought a used VW Jetta TDI for $7500. 40,000 miles later, I'm hooked. I get 50+mpg on the hwy and 40-45 mpg in the city. Maintenance is nil with the exception of 50,000 mile timing belt changes. Power is good, torque is great. I tow my Hobie with no problems and hit the mountains to ski without drama. I test drove the Honda Hybred and the Toyota Prius. I found both to be gutless wonders on the highway. If I were a city only driver I would buy one.
It's my understanding that diesel fuel in this country will be reformulated into a more enviromentaly friendly mix within the next few years. As long as I am driving 35,000 to 50,000 miles a year I will own a diesel. If my yearly mileage drops, Honda S2000 here I come