"An Eye for An Eye" ... and everybody goes blind!

[Dexter Rutecki]

I'm not splitting hairs--saying that an attack on a bus or a school is the same as killing a terrorist (even if some civilians are hurt or killed) is simply false.
That's why we're not the same as Al Qaeda.
I agree that past Israeli governments have made more serious efforts at peace than the current one, but it was Palestinian support of terror that in effect elected the current government.

[board]

Originally posted by bad_roo
I still can't get over the fact that the Israeli forces used an Apache helicopter and a Hellfire missile to nail a guy being trundled along in a wheelchair. Would they have gone nuclear if he was in a minivan?

but to quote Dex Israel always attempts to minimize civilian casualties Oh btw 7 others were killed by that missile and many more injured. But seeing that they were all leaving prayer from a Mosque they MUST be terrorists !

[KQ]

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
Read again, Buster. Intent is what counts, no matter how you look at it. Yes, civilian deaths are accepted, but you can't claim they don't try to minimize them. If they didn't, you'd see a big difference (again, I'll refer you to the Russians in Grozny, or the U.S. in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc.). When Israel carpet bombs the territories then you might have a point.

It's all semantics - killing is killing no matter what words you use to dress it up.

Ppl, governments should just SUCK IT UP and admit they are killing PEOPLE - not "Targets"

*What does "target" bring to mind?

A target is a thing, not a person. It’s round, stuffed with straw or made of paper. It has a bulls-eye. Kids shoot targets with bows and arrows.

And targets feel no pain. They have no dreams lost, or children orphaned.

[All of this] suggests an inanimate enemy: buildings, machines, chemicals. No people. Nobody to be blown apart or get his skin burned off. Computer games. Special effects in a Rambo movie.

Giving "evil' or "inanimate" names to those we wish to kill somehow makes it easier for ppl to tolerate, however the effect is the same.

* From the article: Credible Deception:
The NY Times and the Sudan missile attack
by Jared Israel
See hot_sauce's post

[Dexter Rutecki]

Originally posted by board
D'OH !

Why do I get the above when I try to quote:

but to quote Dex Israel always attempts to minimize civilian casualties Oh btw 7 others were killed by that missile and many more injured. But seeing that they were all leaving prayer from a Mosque they MUST be terrorists !

Even Palestinian reports acknowledge that Hamas bodyguards were killed around him--how many civilians is too many to justify killing a man responsible for hundreds of deaths? I guess Israeli deaths don't matter.
Want to guess what they were probably preaching at that mosque? It wasn't holding hands and brotherhood.

I think if you're standing next to Osama bin Laden you have to accept some degree of risk (it doesn't help that these guys tend to insinuate themselves into Palestinian crowds).

[Dr. Gaper]

Originally posted by board
but to quote Dex Israel always attempts to minimize civilian casualties Oh btw 7 others were killed by that missile and many more injured. But seeing that they were all leaving prayer from a Mosque they MUST be terrorists !

You don't see too many Israelis strapping TNT to their nuts and blowing up a public bus just for shits and giggles.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Originally posted by KQ
It's all semantics - killing is killing no matter what words you use to dress it up.

Ppl, governments should just SUCK IT UP and admit they are killing PEOPLE - not "Targets"

Fine. But no one should equate intentional killing of civilians with attempts to kill known terrorists.

[KQ]

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
That's why we're not the same as Al Qaeda.

It's a thin line........a very thin line. By and large I would say "yes" but our government (through history) has been involved in some covert missions and wars that put us right up there.

[board]

Originally posted by Dr. Gaper
You don't see too many Israelis strapping TNT to their nuts and blowing up a public bus just for shits and giggles.

yeah that's because that's a poor man's weapon. They Israelis are FULLY funded by the US government with every bit of high tech weaponry we have to offer. Like I said earlier, if you want to stop suicide bombings give the Palestinians Abram tanks, F-16, Apache helicopters etc

[Dexter Rutecki]

Agreed. But it hasn't been policy, and such actions haven't enjoyed the popular support that many of these terrorists have.

[Dr. Gaper]

Originally posted by board
yeah that's because that's a poor man's weapon. They Israelis are FULLY funded by the US government with every bit of high tech weaponry we have to offer. Like I said earlier, if you want to stop suicide bombings give the Palestinians Abram tanks, F-16, Apache helicopters etc

Notice the "public bus" part of my quote? Poor man's weapon or not, that is just not right. What kind of message does that send to the world community? If people from Kansas were coming in blowing up my friends in Denver, I would want a wall put up to protect us, too. And I would also want the creeps planning it all out dead.

But yeah, I agree, give them weapons too. Then they can eradicate each other good and proper. Case closed.

[KQ]

Iraqis express outrage at Hamas leader's killing



BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Israel's assassination of Hamas founder Sheikh Ahmed Yassin reverberated Tuesday in Iraq as top Shiite clerics pledged allegiance to the Palestinians and angry Muslims took to the streets.

Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, the most powerful Shiite cleric in Iraq, urged Muslims to unite against Israel and restore what he said belongs to the Palestinians.

Moqtada al-Sadr, a Shiite cleric with a powerful base in a poor Baghdad neighborhood, said Iraqi Muslims support the Palestinians.

"We as Muslims stand hand in hand with our brethren in Palestine," he said. "And we say to them that we are ready to extend all forms of assistance, be it moral or physical."

In a statement Tuesday, Al-Sadr said the Hamas founder was a hero who stood in the face of tyrants and founded a movement that "infuriated enemies."

Al-Sadr said the assassination was a "an aggression against a man of virtue and jihad."

Israel killed Yassin in a missile strike Monday as the founder of Hamas left a Gaza mosque in his wheelchair.

Israel defended its attack, calling Yassin the "godfather" of all suicide bombers who directed attacks against Israel that killed hundreds.

The U.S. State Department considers the Palestinian Islamic fundamentalist organization a terrorist group.

Anger welled up in parts of the "Sunni Triangle," a region north and west of Baghdad that's a hotbed of anti-U.S. sentiment.

About 1,000 people gathered to protest the Israeli action at a government center in Ramadi, 60 miles (97 kilometers) west of the Iraqi capital. It was peaceful until someone tried to fire a rocket-propelled grenade and another person ran a truck into the center's gate, a U.S. military source said.

Police moved in and dispersed the crowd, some of whom threw stones, the source said.

Two Iraqi Civil Defense Corps members were injured, and protesters set ablaze two police trucks before Iraqi authorities stabilized the situation, the source said.

Protests were reported in nearby Fallujah as well.

The international community also condemned Israel's attack. U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan called Yassin's assassination a violation of international law and British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said it was unacceptable.

Israel's most important ally, the United States, criticized the move as a hindrance to peace but stopped short of condemning it.

Mohammed Bahrululum -- the current president of the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council -- sent a letter on behalf of the 25-member group to Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat, expressing anger and shock at Yassin's assassination.

Other developments

Two Iraqi civilians were killed and six others wounded Tuesday in a mortar attack on an Iraqi Civil Defense Corps training area in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul, the U.S. military said. Also in the Mosul region, a U.S. soldier from the Stryker Brigade Combat Team died from a noncombat-related shooting Monday, the Army said Tuesday.

Gunmen opened fire Tuesday on Iraqi police on patrol in the northern city of Kirkuk, police said. The early morning attack killed two policemen and wounded two others, one seriously, police said.

In Hillah, south of Baghdad, eight Iraqi policemen and a civilian driver heading to a police academy were shot and killed Tuesday morning when their minibus was ambushed, Iraqi Police Maj. Khyder Obayes said.

In Baghdad, four U.S. soldiers were wounded as they searched for insurgents as part of the Operation Iron Promise sweep, a military spokesman said. The 1st Armored Division soldiers were wounded by rockets, homemade bombs and rifles and other small arms, said U.S. Army Maj. Dave Gercken. The soldiers have returned to duty. Seven opposition personnel were captured Monday, Gercken said.

U.S. officials said they have released more than 270 prisoners from the Baghdad Correctional Facility because they are no longer considered a threat to security. The U.S.-led coalition has imprisoned about 1,400 civilians because of suspected criminal activity. Some 8,000 civilians are in the prison because the coalition deems them a threat to security forces.

In Najaf, south of Baghdad, L. Paul Bremer, the U.S. civilian administrator in Iraq, opened a new power plant and participated in a town hall meeting with more than two dozen Iraqi clerics, government and business leaders, academics and tribal leaders.

In the southern Iraqi city of Basra, 13 British military personnel were injured Monday in two explosions, the British Ministry of Defense said. None of the injuries was believed to be life-threatening, the ministry said.
CNN's Kevin Flower, Sue Kroll, Kianne Sadeq and Auday Sadik contributed to this report.

[mr_gyptian]

Originally posted by KQ
It's a thin line........a very thin line. By and large I would say "yes" but our government (through history) has been involved in some covert missions and wars that put us right up there.

to you it's a thin line. KQ is this another example in which you'd rather not come up with those messy things called facts?

[KQ]

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
to you it's a thin line. KQ is this another example in which you'd rather not come up with those messy things called facts?

I have lots of facts but I think it would be better if you did your own research. Look - we all have our views on this and no one is going to changes another’s. If a person is curious enough they will seek out the information and educate themselves (at least that's the way it works for me).

Check out the article in hot_sauce's post. There are many facts there that lead me to believe in the statement I made.

You don't have to read or believe anything I post. It really doesn't matter to me. I have nothing to prove. I sit back....I watch....I shake my head....sometimes I speak up...sometimes I'm overwhelmed by the subterfuge....sometimes I wonder how we can do this to each other and still smile.

[Mrs Roo]

http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/pic...,115985,00.jpg


British soldiers in Basra bear the brunt of the rage of the Iraqi people. This was in response to the "assasination".

This widespread response was inevitable. The reason the USA and UK have condemed the killing is because it has cocked up their flagship "road map to peace" which is an entirely political project to show the Arab states that they are the good guys and not really safe guarding future oil supplies by occupying two Arab countries.

There are no innocent intentions from any involved parties, to the detriment of civilians on both sides.

I agree with Truth that organised religion sucks and is majorly to blame but don't underestimate the underhand and shadowy dealings of our great democracies.

[Buster Highmen]

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
I'm not splitting hairs--saying that an attack on a bus or a school is the same as killing a terrorist (even if some civilians are hurt or killed) is simply false.

Then I'm not splitting hairs either Neener neener neener.

That's why we're not the same as Al Qaeda.
I agree that past Israeli governments have made more serious efforts at peace than the current one, but it was Palestinian support of terror that in effect elected the current government.

While I can see your rationale, let's hope that most Americans don't.
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in the context of the upcoming election.

[board]

Originally posted by Mrs Roo

. The reason the USA and UK have condemed the killing is because it has cocked up their flagship "road map to peace" . [/B]

Actually only the UK ( Jack Straw specifically ) commended the action. The US stopped short of condemnation by saying " it was a hindrance to the road map. " once again proving we are Israel's bitch. Funny how that works ???

[Jumper Bones]

well as far as Palestinian youths go, you throw rocks at an 18-year-old with a machine gun, expect full well to get shot.

Yup this tit-for-tat stuff ain't never gonna work. The basic idea of giving the jewish people their own state where they'd always be free from persecution was a great idea, but the idea to restore them to their ancient holy lands was...well, flawed. I think the jewish people need to realize that, even if the palestinian hordes stole the land from them way back when. By accepting the land, they committed themselves to this war - did they really think the palestinians and arabs were going to go along with it?

It'd have been much better for them to have moved to Greenland or Antarctica, there's really nobody there to piss off. And I suppose the ice would have been every bit as lush and verdant as the rocks of Israel.

And yes Israel does have the right to put a bullet in the mouth of anyone who calls for that entire state's destruction. People do have a right to life, and to maintain some sort of way of life.

[Mrs Roo]

Actually only the UK ( Jack Straw specifically ) commended the action. The US stopped short of condemnation by saying " it was a hindrance to the road map. " once again proving we are Israel's bitch. Funny how that works ???

Board, is this what you call a commendation?

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw described the assassination of Sheikh Yassin as "unacceptable" and "unjustified". Mr Straw said he did not think Israel would benefit from an attack on an old man in a wheelchair.- BBC website

Surely you meant condemnation?

[KQ]

Originally posted by Jetter
And yes Israel does have the right to put a bullet in the mouth of anyone who calls for that entire state's destruction. People do have a right to life, and to maintain some sort of way of life.

The right to life by taking the life of another?

What was that sixth point written on those stone tablets so long ago?

[board]

Originally posted by Mrs Roo
Board, is this what you call a commendation?


Surely you meant condemnation?

you are correct, me no speel real gut

[Jumper Bones]

yup, they have a right to off an imam who is telling his hordes to slaughter them wholesale. They didn't go looking to kill him first. He's the one who wouldn't rest until every Isreali was dead, and he founded an organization dedicated to that principle.

[The Reverend Floater]

Originally posted by Dr. Gaper
You don't see too many Israelis strapping TNT to their nuts and blowing up a public bus just for shits and giggles.

Good logic. Because Palistinians would not use Apaches if we gave 'em a few, right?

They use what they have--namely TNT and other explosives--and they use it in the only way they can. Somehow throwing TNT sticks at tanks and Apaches prolly doesn't work so well and those slings and rocks just aren't reaching Sharon's place.

[The Reverend Floater]

Originally posted by Jetter


Yup this tit-for-tat stuff ain't never gonna work. The basic idea of giving the jewish people their own state where they'd always be free from persecution was a great idea, but the idea to restore them to their ancient holy lands was...well, flawed. I think the jewish people need to realize that, even if the palestinian hordes stole the land from them way back when. By accepting the land, they committed themselves to this war - did they really think the palestinians and arabs were going to go along with it?

Not knockin' you, Jetter, but would you leave your house, job, everyone you know and move to another part of the world because shit "doesn't seem to be working"? Most Israelis I know (granted, only a few) say that most Israelis are wanting peace, just like most Palistinians.

To quote anyone from Hamas, Al Q, et al and claim their stance to be any sort of collective muslim voice would be like quoting the Grand Dragon of the KKK and tabbing it "American". Some folks here would rather not accept that, me thinks.

[Jumper Bones]

isn't that what all the jewish emigrants to israel did, left everything behind because stuff wasn't working out in post WWII germany, or post cold war russia?

I'm not saying they should move now, I'm using my massive intellect to state the obvious that it was a flawed idea in the first place. But I was born 50 years too late to be of any help when they made that decision.

[The Reverend Floater]

Originally posted by Jetter
isn't that what all the jewish emigrants to israel did, left everything behind because stuff wasn't working out in post WWII germany, or post cold war russia?

I'm not saying they should move now, I'm using my massive intellect to state the obvious that it was a flawed idea in the first place. But I was born 50 years too late to be of any help when they made that decision.

No, I know and I didn't mean to imply that you meant otherwise. Yes, the Jews did but they were going "home" in their minds, to a place that they believed to be rightfully theirs. Hence the whole problem because it's also home to two other religions.

Yes, the idea was fuct to begin with, me thinks. Too bad the promise land wasn't, indeed, greenland or perhaps New Jersey.